this is beyond measure...
The song is VNV Nation.
It\'s mind numbing - beyond words. I hope everyone here will pass that link along to others.
gkg - and anyone else with an opinion.....
Do you think that Karpinski is being used as a scapegoat re: the abuse of the POW\'s by the American and British soldiers? Deflecting the attention away from US military intelligence and their interrogation tactics? Or do you think it was her, not being in control of some rogue soldiers?
I\'m just trying to get my head around whether these soldiers could have actually been directed (or given permission) to abuse as a way of obtaining information. It\'s all so sickening.
That commander should have known what was going on. She probably did. After all Paul Bremer did according to Democracy Now. I suspect the CIA was in de facto command and I remember a reporter discussing this aspect recently. I also heard talk about how the soldiers were from a rural army reserve unit. Maybe not rogue but definitely backwater. And there is still another twist to the situation. The running of the prison was partially privatized. Check this out from Democracy Now at
Contactors May Be Off Hook For Abuse Role
It is unclear how the government will reprimand the private contractors who played a role in the prison abuse. The Boston Globe reports a legal could allow four American civilian contractors allegedly involved in the abuse of Iraqi prisoners to escape punishment. A Pentagon report found evidence that civilian interrogators employed by the Virginia-based firm CACI and civilian interpreters with the San Diego-based Titan Corp were directly involved in the abuses at the prison. The private contractors can not be tried under military law and it is unclear if criminal charges will be filed against them. A military spokesperson told the Globe "The military has no jurisdiction over the civilian contractors. The military can make recommendations, but it is going to be up to the employer to decide what measures to take." Meanwhile some Iraqis are now publicly saying that they were treated better in Saddam Hussein\'s prison system than under the US.
Quote"The military has no jurisdiction over the civilian contractors. The military can make recommendations, but it is going to be up to the employer to decide what measures to take.
Which probably means a quiet resignation with a nice pension. Where I\'m from, that\'s how we always end up dealing with people who are in a position of power when they get caught doing something corrupt or unethical.
A quiet little exit - off the radar of public scrutiny.
I hope the American public persues this one.
If this is meant to make me feel bad, and to think that America is horrible for going to war... then that was gay.
But, if it\'s jusy documenting the year anniversary, then it was pretty cool.
I\'m just getting tired of all the anti-war bullshit... it had to be done... it\'s that simple, all these people are whining about how people are dying... that\'s the price of war...
What do they expect, us to go over and beat them in a game of chess? People bitching and complaining about war isn\'t going to end war... it\'s just something that happens, you guys should stop bitching and support your troops. And you all may hate Bush now for going to war, but you\'ll be thankful when you\'re not sucking on mustard gas in 2 years courtesy of Saddam Hussein.
All very interesting and open to speculation but I thought this forum was supposed to be about music??! :-/
"Post about any artist or in fact anything!" is what it says under the topic heading. Viggo, Buckethead and I made a record that ties this discussion and music together, so as long as this thread doesn\'t degenerate into name-calling I think this conversation is relevant and worth having. I have been impressed with the quality level of the conversations of the participants of this forum. I know you can respect each other for the many things you have in common and can tolerate the few that you don\'t.
Criticism accepted Travis.
I love that this forum is open to everyones opinion, and I applaud that almost all of the participants have been very respectful of others comments. I hope that everyone will continue to weigh in on this topic as it is so very important right now in history.
I don\'t live in the states, so my perspective may be somewhat different. Up until recently, I was getting most of my information from CNN and Fox, as my own national news station was getting most of their feeds directly form the american news stations. I\'ve now turned to print media and internet sources, thanks to some of the links provided by gkg, megan and bhead51 and Perceval Press.
To have this forum and to be able to "eavesdrop" in on what some of the younger generation of Americans are thinking (on boths sides) is really remarkable.
hagar1, no criticism, just an observation, welcome to the discussion.
Weather you\'re pro-war, or against everything that\'s going on over there, watching that\'s gotta put a sick feeling in the pit of your stomach, and a lump in your throat.
QuoteWeather you\'re pro-war, or against everything that\'s going on over there, watching that\'s gotta put a sick feeling in the pit of your stomach, and a lump in your throat.
Well said bro. Regardless of one\'s stance on this whole nightmare, if seeing those photos of the reality of the situation doesn\'t put your gut in knots, something is missing in your soul.
sorry for dropping off the screen for a couple days. root canals and crowns are SO much fun. :P
the reason i posted is simple - the images need to be seen. we all need to be aware of what is being done, in our collective name, whether we agree with it or not.
i think i\'m pretty much on record here as being against war. this IS what war is, you\'re right machete. that would pretty much sum up why i am against it. war dehumanizes all of us. look at what ordinary GIs did in Abu Ghraib.
me_again asked if i thought General Karpinski is a scapegoat... no - but she will be the sacrifical lamb. people are calling for Rumsfeld to go - ain\'t gonna happen that i can see.
torture is nothing new. i knew people tortured in Brasil, Viet Nam vets i know all say US did it there too, which is not really shocking. they were in an untenable situation. people lose themselves, their very souls some times.
i don\'t think the horror of where you are and what you are being "told to do" is an excuse to do what they did. it may be the reason it happened, but nothing excuses it.
i think since the Red Cross and others have been trying to get this stuff looked into since last November or earlier, there are a GREAT many people responsible, whether they laid a finger on the prisoners themselves or not. whether it was an abhorrent order given to you or something your buddies pushed you into, it was still wrong. whether you did it or just kept your mouth shut about it. whether you were a GI or a civilian. whether you were in Iraq or stateside. it is WRONG to do what has been done.
then again, i see the whole premise of invading for our own gain and trying to palm it off as a "preemptive strike" for some trumped up threat is wrong.