August 12, 2020, 04:12:07 am

New
Site design:

A lot of new content added.

Check the home page.


New!
Thanatopsis "Requiem" Available now.


Studio Videos

Live in studio performances

Translation of national anthem?

Started by stuffyrandL, May 03, 2006, 01:02:08 am

Previous topic - Next topic

stuffyrandL

May 03, 2006, 01:02:08 am Last Edit: May 03, 2006, 01:04:34 am by stuffyrandL
The Star-Spangled Banner
--Francis Scott Key, 1814
O say, can you see, by the dawn\'s early light,
What so proudly we hail\'d at the twilight\'s last gleaming?
Whose broad stripes and bright stars, thro\' the perilous fight,
O\'er the ramparts we watch\'d, were so gallantly streaming?
And the rockets\' red glare, the bombs bursting in air,
Gave proof thro\' the night that our flag was still there.
O say, does that star-spangled banner yet wave
O\'er the land of the free and the home of the brave...

In response to the remarks of the President in regards to the translation of the national anthem to Spanish.  I fail to see why this is so blasphemous.  Is it so wrong for the Spanish speaking population to be able to lift their voices, showing respect and love for their country?  If so, then what makes it right for an English speaking person to sing the national anthem for comic effect?  Why does it offend so many, the thought of this song translated into Spanish?  Why not Korean, German, French?  The only native Americans are the Native Americans.  And they didn\'t speak English.  Our country is such a melting pot of cultures, races, and languages.  How can we deny any section of the population the right to give song for their country, regardless of language?  Who are we to deny them that right?  Where is the freedom there?  

That\'s my opinion and I look forward to hearing yours.  If this has already been posted somewhere else, my apologies.


Be happy while you're living for you're a long time dead- Scottish proverb

Bakeka

I take no offense in the translation...after all, didn\'t we steal the melody to "God Save The Queen" and teach our youth to sing "My country tis of the..sweet land of liberty"?  That seems like a worse offense.
I remember I was very confused the frst time I heard the National anthem of Great Britain.
always and forever

gkg

May 03, 2006, 04:03:35 pm #2 Last Edit: May 03, 2006, 04:05:42 pm by gkg
ah, but it was not translated verbatim, and frankly although i\'m extremely liberal 99.99% of the time, in this instance i am shocked to find that i agree with the Shrub on something.

while i believe that everyone should work hard to keep their personal native culture alive within their hearts and teach their traditions to their children, i also would not imagine moving to France and expect to never have to learn French, let alone have the temerity to change the lyrics of the National Anthem.

if one wants to do satire of it, fine; if one wants to do something in a skit with it, fine; but to call it a new version for a specific portion of the population?  that goes against the very point of this nation, we are ALL American - be as different as you like, that is (at least for now) still one\'s right in this country - but to try and make separate versions of the Anthem for different parts of the population slides slyly back into a segregation of the cultures that is against everything we are supposed to stand for.

yes, i do think immigrants should learn English.  i learned Portuguese when i lived in Brasil, and i learned English when we moved up here.  every person i know from another culture who has moved to this country has been PROUD to learn English and participate in the American culture - why now try to create some sort of new anthem for only the Hispanic culture?  i\'m also not overly fond of the spread of forcing companies, utilities and the like to use Spanish in their paperwork.  i\'m sorry folks, but if you move to a foreign country then you need to accept the responsibility of learning to communicate in that country\'s language.

this isn\'t the first time there has been a flap about the Anthem in popular culture.  it IS the National Anthem.  Roseanne caught huge crap when scratching her imaginary balls while singing it.  many people dislike the various twisted attempts at doing something new with it, even using the original words.  it\'s not just any song.  it\'s not sacred, as i said, satirical works etc., sure, but this is something that goes down the wrong road in my view.

as for using the tune of "God Save the Queen" - it\'s originally a bar song, many tunes for old songs seem to come from old sing-song tunes sung in pubs and taverns.  it\'s a common cultural thing and doesn\'t bother me in the least.  it\'s the words that hold the meaning in an anthem, it\'s not written as a great piece of musical composition.

just my 2 cents (ok, more like 5 cents, but i\'m a generous soul)  ;)
Peace.

image = <i>"Blue Velvet"</i> (front of 2-sided piece) (c) georgia k griffin - all rights reserved

stuffyrandL

LOL, gkg!  It was a good five cents!

I agree that when you move to a country, you should expect to learn that language.  I have a question for anyone who has traveled abroad (definitely not my field of expertise!).  A lot of the writing here is in multiple languages. And, as gkg mentioned, the utilities and all are making things multilingual.  The schools as well.  Is it like that in other countries?  I ask because I\'m ignorant, truthfully, having only been to Canada and Mexico.  But it was Tujuana and I was drunk and do not remember a thing.  So, Mexico probably doesn\'t count. And the Canada trip was to Niagara Falls where it was all in French and English so that probably doesn\'t count either.  ;D Golly gee, I\'m a homebody!  LOL!  If anyone could enlighten me, that would be great!  Thanks!
Be happy while you're living for you're a long time dead- Scottish proverb

Bakeka

Interesting 5 cents, GKG, It is always nice to learn a little history.
  as far as multiple languages on sign posts go, english and french are both on the signs in some of Ontario and most of Quebec provinces in Canada.
  In Ireland, Gaelic is in large print and english in small letters. They are trying to re-claim their lost language....
Europe is mostly the in native language, as  I remember, its been too long...
always and forever

oldfolkie

When you live in a (legislated) bilingual country, as I do (and the English+French goes a lot farther than street signs), it\'s no surprise to learn that the words often don\'t match exactly between what are supposed to be versions of the same thing. It\'s true for our national anthem along with all too many other things. Sadly, language is used divisively by most politicians, of whatever stripe.

Having said that, I can\'t imagine anything more useful and more mind-expanding than learning at least one other language. As early as possible, so it has a chance of sticking! We\'ve been frustrated here by the attempt to re-educate adults, rather than immersing children. Unfortunately, unless you live in New Brunswick (our ONLY officially bilingual province) or certain limited bilingual regions in the rest of the country, you\'re unlikely to have sufficient chance to use your second language on a daily basis, and with language it\'s definitely "use it or lose it", as I know to my cost.  On exiting high school *mumble* years ago, I was a fairly fluent French speaker. In spite of having lived in the nation\'s capital, Ottawa, a supposedly bilingual region, for more than 30 years now, where I could be expected to have lots of chance to use it (but don\'t really -- don\'t get me started on people who start speaking English the moment I try my French) I have lost almost all of it. The only time I ever seem to speak French now is on trips to Europe. Like the time I helped a French woman in Bergen Norway with directions. Go figure.

The moral of this diatribe? You can\'t legislate language. It\'ll get used where it\'s needed. And to maintain a learned language you\'ve got to live in it at least part of the time, especially if you come to it late.

my 6 cents (Canadian  ;) )
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity. ~  R.A. Heinlein

gkg

QuoteThe moral of this diatribe? You can\'t legislate language. It\'ll get used where it\'s needed. And to maintain a learned language you\'ve got to live in it at least part of the time, especially if you come to it late.

ah... but you can.  the thing is, your country had both those languages in use for the centuries, regionally.  in the US it has always been an English speaking country.  you might hear Polish in parts of certain cities, and Spanish, Italian, Yiddish, etc. in other parts, but the over all language in use has always been English and each of those and other immigrant groups over the centuries have to some degree or another maintained the ability to speak their native tongue even while learning and speaking English.  it is a very recent thing to have Spanish pushed upon the country as a second language, and i while completely understand the positive aspects of maintaining a second language, it should be a matter of choice what your second language is, and the primary language remains the English language.

as for the lyrics, yes, a translation always has one or two little differences, but it\'s not the differences, although some have argued that they were done to mobilize Latinos, what i find wrong is two fold.  one, people should be learning the actual anthem of the country they have chosen to live in, and two, you can tell it is not being done for inclusiveness if you look at the title it was given... and remember, in my heart i have a huge stake in the Latino community, i lived in Brasil and came here when i was 6, not speaking any English.

Lyrics to \'Nuestro Himno\' (\'Our Anthem\')
Verso 1

Amanece, lo veis?, a la luz de la aurora?
lo que tanto aclamamos la noche al caer?
sus estrellas sus franjas
flotaban ayer
en el fiero combate
en señal de victoria,
fulgor de lucha, al paso de la libertad.
Por la noche decían:
"Se va defendiendo!"

Coro

Oh decid! Despliega aún
Su hermosura estrellada
sobre tierra de libres,
la bandera sagrada?

Verso 2

Sus estrellas, sus franjas,
la libertad, somos iguales.
Somos hermanos. Es nuestro himno.
En el fiero combate en señal de victoria,
Fulgor de lucha

(Mi gente sigue luchando)

al paso de la libertad

(Ya es tiempo de romper las cadenas.)

Por la noche decían: "!Se va defendiendo!"
Oh decid! Despliega aún su hermosura estrellada
sobre tierra de libres,
la bandera sagrada?

English translation:

Verse 1

It\'s sunrise. Do you see by the light of the dawn
What we proudly hailed last nightfall?
Its stars, its stripes
yesterday streamed
above fierce combat
a symbol of victory
the glory of battle, the march toward liberty.
Throughout the night, they proclaimed: "We will defend it!"

Chorus

Tell me! Does its starry beauty still wave
above the land of the free,
the sacred flag?

Verse 2

Its stars, its stripes,
Liberty, we are the same.
We are brothers in our anthem.
In fierce combat, a symbol of victory
the glory of battle,

(My people fight on)

the march toward liberty.

(The time has come to break the chains.)

Throughout the night they proclaimed: "We will defend it!"
Tell me! Does its starry beauty still wave
above the land of the free,
the sacred flag?
Peace.

image = <i>"Blue Velvet"</i> (front of 2-sided piece) (c) georgia k griffin - all rights reserved

oldfolkie

gkg, I know where you're coming from. The linguistic majority here has had much the same feeling. This is one reason why I don't think that bilingualism can be effectively legislated into being, which it was here as recently as 1969; I remember it well. However, a substantial linguistic minority, regardless of origin, is likely to push until they get what they want, and whether or not the demographics justify the burden of bilingualism (and it IS a burden, however justified). However, we accept it as one of the fundamentals of our culture, awkward as it is. But then, Canada was never considered a "melting pot". We\'ve always had kind of a multi-cultural bent, even if the dominant visible culture was British-like for a long time. If only we were as considerate of our First Nations, who were here speaking their languages a lot longer than any of the rest of us...

Wikipedia has a good article on Canadian linguistic demographics:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Mathieugp/drafts/Language_demographics_of_Canada

You say you feel Spanish is pushed on you? Look at our linguistic distribution and ask yourself how the English-speaking majority here felt in 1969 and since, about French. But it\'s not particularly logical, more emotional. Francophones in Quebec feel the same about English and are even more adamant about discouraging its use. THEY are officially unilingual. It\'s all very awkward.

As for our anthem, if you're interested, here are some official & unofficial links. Personally, I sing "all of us" rather than "all our sons", and an extra "O Canada" instead of "God keep our land". But then, I'm not all that dedicated to the preservation of national, gender-based, or religious symbols. JMO.
http://www.pch.gc.ca/progs/cpsc-ccsp/sc-cs/anthem_e.cfm
http://www.pch.gc.ca/progs/cpsc-ccsp/sc-cs/anthem_f.cfm
http://david.national-anthems.net/ca.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O_Canada

We usually treat language along with religion and politics as one of the "touchy" subjects. Doesn't mean we shouldn't talk about it, but it tends to produce a lot of shouting. (and lengthy posts! LOL)

btw, thanks so much for posting the lyrics in question -- I was wondering what the Spanish version looked like!
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity. ~  R.A. Heinlein

gkg

well, that\'s the version i have seen, could be others out there.

it is a touchy subject, indeed.  it\'s a funny thing but i\'m not huge on all the pomp of must nationalism or whatever, but there are a few things that i find significance in, not so much from a sense of standing behind them but to say that if you want to be a part of a group you need to accept certain things, otherwise you don\'t really want to belong.  immigration is a choice that is made and therefore it bespeaks a desire to belong.  you don\'t have to agree to follow any particular party, but you have to accept that here we vote and the candidates belong to parties.  you can make a new one or try to run without one, but you accept the premise that we will vote rather than be dictated to.  at least so far that\'s still the system.  ;o)

i don\'t say the phrase \'under God\' when i have to pledge allegiance to the flag.  it wasn\'t in the original and goes against the grounds on which the country was formed.  i do sing the national anthem the way it was written (\'sacred flag\') because that is the way it was written and the flag is symbolic of our country.  i believe we have the right to burn a flag in protest, but i don\'t think we have a right to treat it like a meaningless object that can be plastered on bumper stickers and every other object you can name just to show some sick form of jingoism masquerading as patriotism.  i do find the national colors to be important to me symbolically, and therefore again i find them good for use when symbolism is appropriate, whether support or protest, but not to be plastered on every thing up to and beyond the horizon.  that\'s just me, and since it\'s making some people a huge amount of money in crappy souvenirs i don\'t expect it to change any time soon.

like i said, it\'s kind of surprising since i\'m such a hugely left wing person, but there are some things that i think are just poor form.

that\'s just me spouting off.  i do that.  Travis once called me gregarius, and that\'s pretty accurate i guess... i am a social creature.  i suspect it was his delicate or polite way of saying i\'m long winded and talkative, but i think like \'literal\' definition better.  ;)
Peace.

image = <i>"Blue Velvet"</i> (front of 2-sided piece) (c) georgia k griffin - all rights reserved

oldfolkie

May 07, 2006, 12:41:59 am #9 Last Edit: May 07, 2006, 12:43:17 am by oldfolkie
Quotethat\'s just me spouting off.  i do that.  Travis once called me gregarius, and that\'s pretty accurate i guess... i am a social creature.  i suspect it was his delicate or polite way of saying i\'m long winded and talkative, but i think like \'literal\' definition better.  ;)
You might have noticed I\'m a little chatty myself!  ;)  Never mind, these discussions are good. Since when do we have to be entirely logical in our views, or agree with everybody on everything? Pretty boring world it would be if the thought police could have their insidious way with us, wouldn\'t it?  ::)
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity. ~  R.A. Heinlein

gkg

Peace.

image = <i>"Blue Velvet"</i> (front of 2-sided piece) (c) georgia k griffin - all rights reserved