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Dirty Little Wars on Freedoms

Started by Peace_On_Earth, December 30, 2005, 05:23:09 pm

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Peace_On_Earth

December 30, 2005, 05:23:09 pm Last Edit: December 30, 2005, 05:32:11 pm by Peace_On_Earth
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety derserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin

When my eyes could not beleive the amount of force used in Shock and Awe, I thought OK we as a country have sunk pretty low. It was haunting me just to listen to the news. But now things have progressed so far that if we do not start doing something to stop all of the treachery in our government, American and human freedoms and rights worldwide will be forever lost.

Once the government is allowed to step all over civil and human rights like in the following instances, and we as a people do not take a stand to stop the encroachment, we will have nobody to blame but ourselves when we have to be indoors by 8 by threat of death from an MP, we pay $20/gallon for gas and we have no free press - well, we don\'t really have a free press anymore, so I guess we better start fixing things soon.


CIVIL RIGHTS GONE:

U.S. to Probe Disclosure of NSA\'s Domestic Wiretaps
From Associated Press
7:55 AM PST, December 30, 2005
latimes.com : National News
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-123005wiretaps_wr,0,3266871.story?coll=la-home-headlines
WASHINGTON -- The Justice Department has opened an investigation into the leak of classified information about President Bush\'s secret domestic spying program, Justice officials said today. The officials, who requested anonymity because of the sensitivity of the probe, said the inquiry will focus on disclosures to The New York Times. . .

Taking liberties
Leader
Wednesday December 21, 2005
The Guardian
http://www.guardian.co.uk/leaders/story/0,,1671571,00.html
George Bush has not yet convinced Americans that he was right to authorise secret surveillance of phone calls and emails - without warrants - as part of the "war on terror" that has become the centrepiece of his presidency.


New York Police Covertly Join In at Protest Rallies
December 22, 2005, Thursday
By JIM DWYER (NYT); Metropolitan Desk
Late Edition - Final, Section A, Page 1, Column 3
http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F60F14F83F540C718EDDAB0994DD404482

Undercover New York City police officers have conducted covert surveillance in the last 16 months of people protesting the Iraq war, bicycle riders taking part in mass rallies and even mourners at a street vigil for a cyclist killed in an accident, a series of videotapes show. In glimpses...


US intelligence service bugged website visitors despite ban
· Agency apologises for use of \'cookie\' tracking files
· Exposure adds to pressure over White House powers

Suzanne Goldenberg in Washington
Friday December 30, 2005
The Guardian
http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1675272,00.html


GLOBAL HUMAN RIGHTS AND FREEDOMS GONE:

Covert CIA program withstands new furor
Anti-terrorism effort continues to grow

By Dana Priest
The Washington Post
Updated: 11:43 p.m. ET Dec. 29, 2005
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10644533/  


Accused of Kidnapping, 10 Agents Face Lawsuit
By ANTHEE CARASSAVA
Published: December 29, 2005
NY TIMES
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/29/international/europe/29greece.html


American marines charged with rape in the Philippines
· Woman was attacked in van, prosecutors allege
· US embassy asked to hand over accused
John Aglionby, south-east Asia correspondent
Wednesday December 28, 2005
The Guardian
http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1674271,00.html  


AND YOU KNOW WHY WE HAVE THESE VIOLATION OF HUMAN RIGHTS?

Bush\'s impeachable offense
Yes, the president committed a federal crime by wiretapping Americans, say constitutional scholars, former intelligence officers and politicians. What\'s missing is the political will to impeach him.
By Michelle Goldberg
http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2005/12/22/impeach/  

GET INVOLVED/TAKE ACTION:

www.votetoimpeach.org  

buy an impeachment T-shirt here: http://www.percevalpress.com/books.html?-session=pp_sc:F832503750D215D5A8CFF9DC83E248A0  

the ACLU here: http://www.aclu.org/  

Become informed at Democracy Now (independent news station):
http://www.democracynow.org/index.shtml

Get a handle on global human rights:
http://www.humanrightswatch.org/

Understand the horror of war through art at
Artists Against The War:
http://www.aawnyc.org/

Poets Against the War:
http://www.poetsagainstthewar.org/

Watch a trailer "Voices In Wartime:"
http://www.voicesinwartime.org/VoicesInWartime/Film/VideoTrailer/VideoTrailer.aspx
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety derserve neither liberty nor safety."  Benjamin Franklin

phartacus

QuoteI thought OK we as a country have sunk pretty low

ok this might be the general concensus of the posters on this board but this kinda crap aint gonna play in peoria. most americans are sick of hearing from the wacky left about how america sucks and all the worlds ills are our fault. first of all its just plain false and more importantly its hurtful to alot of people. you wanna talk about low? how about the fact that millions of iraqi citizens are now free to exercise democracy but since most of the posters on this board had nothing but negative carping and bitching and moaining about the war they set themselves up to be rooting for americas defeat in iraq. not even one month ago millions of iraqis voted in historic elections and not a god damn peep of it was uttered on this board. you wanna talk about low? in order for the democrats to gain power america\'s economy has to fail, america has to lose the war in iraq. fortunatley america will not fail. i look forward to watching the republicans stay in power in 2006 and winning the presidency (yet again) in 2008. and i cant wait to come back here and watch the meltdown.

Peace_On_Earth

December 31, 2005, 05:29:54 pm #2 Last Edit: December 31, 2005, 05:36:48 pm by Peace_On_Earth
Hey Phartacus,

Contrary to your Point of View about the whacky left, I am quite sane. . . lol.

But really, it does not bother you that the government can listen to your phone calls at will with no probable cause - in other words you did nothing but they can eavesdrop on you anyway and maybe you might make a statement contrary to their perspective and be labeled a "terrorist" ? ? ? It defintely bothers me that such an infraction does not concern you.  And what about your freedom to go out on the street and wave a banner to support the troops - would you be comfortable knowing a democrat who was an official of the government was in your midst just to spy on you to take you to prison if you said something they did not agree with like the police do to peaceful protesters?

My whole point was, all sides have freedoms to exercise, not just the right. And if we do not watch our government they will rip those freedoms from ALL of us.

And it is hard for me to wave a flag of victory for free elections knowing that America WP/Naplam\'d other human beings - we used a chemical that nearly the entire rest of the world has said is inhumane, even in war! So when I weigh the dark side of war over the so called bright successes, somehow I don\'t feel much like gabbing about a vote we likely rigged through covert operations by supporting one side over the other just because the one side was more amiable to the United States.

America in Iraq is occupation and an illegal war, IN MY OPINION. And until we get our noses out of there and stop trying to rape a country of its natural resources (oil), then no, I do not have much good to say about what we\'re doing in Iraq.

But please continue to state your views. It gives me hope that maybe American freedoms are still at work.
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety derserve neither liberty nor safety."  Benjamin Franklin

Aquabot

Quote

ok this might be the general concensus of the posters on this board but this kinda crap aint gonna play in peoria. most americans are sick of hearing from the wacky left about how america sucks and all the worlds ills are our fault. first of all its just plain false and more importantly its hurtful to alot of people. you wanna talk about low? how about the fact that millions of iraqi citizens are now free to exercise democracy but since most of the posters on this board had nothing but negative carping and bitching and moaining about the war they set themselves up to be rooting for americas defeat in iraq. not even one month ago millions of iraqis voted in historic elections and not a god damn peep of it was uttered on this board. you wanna talk about low? in order for the democrats to gain power america\'s economy has to fail, america has to lose the war in iraq. fortunatley america will not fail. i look forward to watching the republicans stay in power in 2006 and winning the presidency (yet again) in 2008. and i cant wait to come back here and watch the meltdown.

Iraqis are now free to exercise USA controlled democracy, the candidates of the so "historic" election are the US government\'s puppets. Now who the hell gave Saddam power during the Irak/Iran war? What will happen when the Iraq government wants to get rid of the US patronizing. Why contracts to share the Iraq oil were signed before the war was declared, what about the contracts for the reconstruction of Iraq? How can a country where the president has been elected twice by rigging the election, by striking black people\'s names off the lists in some states, by using defective voting machines in other states, export democracy?

America\'s economy already fails, there are more and more poor people in your country. Is that the result of good solid economy?

Maybe you should have a look at your country and its foreign policy and its history, you could learn something interesting about democracy. Now if you want to believe in fairy tales...

phartacus

QuoteAmerica\'s economy already fails, there are more and more poor people in your country. Is that the result of good solid economy?/quote]

could you please point me to where you got this information?

Peace_On_Earth

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety derserve neither liberty nor safety."  Benjamin Franklin

gkg

phartacus
Quotecould you please point me to where you got this information?
Our own government states this as fact in its census analysis:
http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/poverty/poverty04/pov04hi.html

and here\'s a bunch of info on how they calculate such things...
http://aspe.hhs.gov/poverty/05poverty.shtml
Peace.

image = <i>"Blue Velvet"</i> (front of 2-sided piece) (c) georgia k griffin - all rights reserved

phartacus

Quotephartacus
Our own government states this as fact in its census analysis:
http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/poverty/poverty04/pov04hi.html

and here\'s a bunch of info on how they calculate such things...
http://aspe.hhs.gov/poverty/05poverty.shtml

i understood his/her post to mean that there are more impoverished persons in the US than in any other country, but regardless right now the unemployment rate is at 5%, and no matter how wealthy a country is there is always going to be an element of the population for whatever reasons that just cannot succeed. the thing i find most disturbing is that someone from another country says in a round about way that america sucks and an american cheers em on....go figure  

gkg

loving my country, just as loving another human being, doesn\'t mean being a blind fool to their faults and flaws.  i have no problem agreeing with someone stating the fact that we have an increased poverty rate.  it IS a fact.  why do you have such a hard time accepting negative facts about the country you love?  you should accept them and then move forward to do something about them, rather than rant at those who have made the factual statement.

blind patriotism is what got us in the mess we are in.  blind patriotism is what the government counts on to get its ugliest deeds done.  blind patriotism is not the same as loving one\'s country - blind patriotism allows people to manipulate this country for their own gain.  blind patriotism allows people to commit the most horrible acts against our constitution and the people of our nation uncontested.

i love my country.  i love it too much to let some blind patriot attack a person stating a simple and sad truth about my country.  America is and can be many wonderful things - but it is far from perfect and is currently sliding down a dangerous slope like a mudslide, gathering trees and animals, destroying houses, lives and dreams... both here and abroad.

America does not exist in a vacuum, and blind patriotism is not going to redeem her.
Peace.

image = <i>"Blue Velvet"</i> (front of 2-sided piece) (c) georgia k griffin - all rights reserved

phartacus

Quotewhy do you have such a hard time accepting negative facts about the country you love?

well i guess the answer to this question, as its asked, would probably be the opposite to reasons why you cant accept positive facts about america. sure i am well aware of the black eyes we as a country have, but im a happy person, who is happy with my life. my days are filled with optimism. you on the other hand from what i can gather by reading some of the things you say are just plain miserable, you dont have anything positive to say about anything, its just one doom and gloom post after the next. your hatred for one man (Bush) based on differing political idealogies has really made you sound bitter, angry, and shrill.

gkg

if you honestly believe that then you were very selective in what you\'ve read of my posts.  i have posted plenty of positive things, but if all you\'re reading is the political section, then probably you are mostly reading my rage at the current adminsitration, yes.  and my rage at the inaction of those who would rather sit and attack people telling the truth than face the truth that is being told.

i have often praised the country and the foundation of freedoms that we hold dear, the constitution and the bill of rights are dear to me and something this country should be proud of.

we have wonderful people and a rich culture - unfortunately, right now, there is too much evil being done for me to be a chirpy little sparrow all the time.  it is not a differing ideology that makes me bitter angry and shrill, if indeed i am such - it is the outright illegal activity that is being blindly accepted as a-ok by folks who don\'t want to face facts.  the man needs to be impeached and he needs to be in jail, along with all the rest.  in Norway when they remove the head of state the whole adminstration goes with him, other countries probably have the same policy - the problem here is that if we take out Bush we lose the puppet and put the architect of the fiasco in charge.

you maybe disappointed but i don\'t live in stepford, i live in reality.  i paint wonderful happy things and horrible scary things, and many things in between, because as a reasonably balanced person, i have many facets to me. one facet i do not have though, is blind patriotism and, as a true American, i am proud of that.
Peace.

image = <i>"Blue Velvet"</i> (front of 2-sided piece) (c) georgia k griffin - all rights reserved

Peace_On_Earth

the entire reason why people are speaking out so strongly right now is because we do care about America - we do have postive ideas for our country, one of them being we should have a transparent governemnt that tells the truth and does not try to line the pockets of the rich off the backs of the poor.

It still bothers me that phartacus does not seem to be moved at all by the current state of affairs. Even my Mom and Dad who are Republican to the core say that we are in trouble in this country right now due to the mess in the White House. They feel it is mostly Chaney. As a Democrat, I feel what is wrong is the ideaologies of the extremists who are causing all the troubles - not just the righty-right, but the other extremists all across the globe. We ignited the anger of the other extremists with our own extremists policies that go back in history. For example:

"The most ultimately righteous of all wars is a war with savages, though it is apt to be also the most terrible and inhuman. The rude, fierce settler who drives the savage from the land lays all civilized mankind under a debt to him... it is of incalculable importance that America, Australia, and Siberia should pass out of the hands of their red, black, and yellow aboriginal owners, and become the heritage of the dominant world races."
Theodore Roosevelt

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety derserve neither liberty nor safety."  Benjamin Franklin

Aquabot

Pointing out the negative facts about a country doesn\'t mean you can\'t accept its positive facts, but I don\'t see anything positive in giving up your rights for some pseudo security. The USA is a great country and most US citizens are like the others, they wanna live in peace, the problem is there\'s always someone to justify the silliest decisions made by the government (it\'s the same in my country, mind you).

Perhaps I sounded a bit rude to you, but I\'m tired of being told that the US foreign policy is a model to follow when the contrary is evident as soon as you know a bit of History and I\'m tired of seeing intelligent people believing lies because they\'re afraid to face reality (or they\'re too lazy to look for information or whatever other reasons) and I\'m tired of the USA\'s acting the sheriffs of the world with no legitimacy to do it.

Besides I don\'t think being from different country disqualifies anyone from having a valid view of the situation in another country. I\'ve noticed that people are often not completely aware of what happens in their own country and that\'s a drag cause it\'s so easy to get valid information nowadays. Now there are still those who have the information but don\'t want to believe it for some reason.

Peace_On_Earth

January 05, 2006, 03:50:14 pm #13 Last Edit: January 05, 2006, 03:51:42 pm by Peace_On_Earth
America\'s transgressions are as a plain as opening a newspaper or any news info these days - online or hard copy. If someone is still so blind they cannot see the current situation warrants action to take the scoundrels out of government, then they simply do not want to see the bad side of the issues.

Only looking at what is perceived to be the so called "bright" side of things, or to use the President\'s words, "nobody is reporting on what good things are going on in Iraq" - which is b.s., is an attempt to bury the truth of what is happening with the so-called "War on Terror." It is an historical fact that the U.S. has buried its own attrocities even in our own text books at school - from day one we are taught that we are the heroes! But there is fortunately a movement out there to shift perspectives in our teaching to include all voices from the conflicts of the past.

Here is a quote from Sam Hamil co-founder of http://www.poetsagainstwar.com  

" Our social lies in this country began with our lack of understanding of our own history. The nineteenth century in America was a century of genocide. What we did to the Native American nations who lived here is unspeakable. It was in fact the model for Hitler\'s concentration camps. We destroyed nearly 200 languages in North America in the eighteenth century."
Sam Hamil
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety derserve neither liberty nor safety."  Benjamin Franklin

oldfolkie

I\'m reminded of a Bob Dylan song, called "With God on Our Side".

The more things change, the more they stay the same.
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity. ~  R.A. Heinlein