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who served / who didn\'t

Started by gkg, November 15, 2005, 09:09:56 pm

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gkg

hey, i don\'t have a sense of "ownership" on this thing - it\'s a thread meant to provoke thought and discussion...

i am afraid that while i can appreciate your splitting of that hair, i don\'t really agree with your resulting conclusion.  in my view, regardless of whether or not the man and his administration followed protocol or acted in good faith, we are at war.  the fact is, we have attacked and continue to attack; we have provoked armed resistance; we are killing by the droves and being killed.  i feel the same way about Viet Nam - you can call it a police action, but we took on an armed offensive against another people, and that is an act of war.

his declaration of war based knowingly on false information is treasonous in my view, and qualifies him for immediate removal and impeachment.  yes, i do believe that he knew he was lying at the time; i think it is just barely possible that he\'s repeated the lie so often that he now thinks he thought it was true... but even that would be a stretch.
Peace.

image = <i>"Blue Velvet"</i> (front of 2-sided piece) (c) georgia k griffin - all rights reserved

dirtface

December 06, 2005, 05:19:00 am #16 Last Edit: December 06, 2005, 02:17:18 pm by dirtface
Quotein my view, regardless of whether or not the man and his administration followed protocol or acted in good faith, we are at war.

First off I would like to say that I really doubt that it means squat to a grape what the legal status behind the bullet is when its popped, so don\'t think that I was in any way attempting to minimize the extent of what we have done and continue to do. I do not. Armed combat is armed combat regardless what suit it wears.

Now from the point of view of who is responsible for decisions and actions don\'t you think it is very important that the distinction be made?
 
Quote
the fact is, we have attacked and continue to attack; we have provoked armed resistance; we are killing by the droves and being killed.  i feel the same way about Viet Nam - you can call it a police action, but we took on an armed offensive against another people, and that is an act of war.

I agree completely with this. It is an act of war. I still believe the rules regarding this are clear and correct and IMPORTANT.

Quotehis declaration of war based knowingly on false information is treasonous in my view, and qualifies him for immediate removal and impeachment.  yes, i do believe that he knew he was lying at the time; i think it is just barely possible that he\'s repeated the lie so often that he now thinks he thought it was true... but even that would be a stretch.

And there you have it all summed up for me. The president cannot declare war for the Nation. It is not in his power. Congress did not declare therefore the President owns this action and rightly so as he personally drove so hard to get there. This does not in anyway change the fact that violence is happening. And as I mentioned before, if youo want the ownership you have to take all the responsibility that goes with it. This is just one more place the current administration has failed us. From this administration how many times have you heard items like 'History will determine how right I was'? Ok? Now how many times have you heard things like 'your right, that was a mistake and we will work to do better'? Ok? Do you understand where I am going with his? They own it but have completely failed to own up to it. "treasonous" behavior is a very good choice of words.

How is this one for the books; "the domino effect" was correct but is actually based on the following items

Stagnant Economy
Flight of Real Wage Jobs
Collapsing Businesses
Rampant Corporate Corruption
Huge Tax Cuts
Spiraling Expenditures
Ballooning Debt

So what is toppling? Heed Greenspans latest warnings? Nah, replace him with yet one more Crony, but that is a topic for another thread.

gkg

December 06, 2005, 09:58:17 am #17 Last Edit: December 07, 2005, 11:20:05 pm by gkg
i agree with your perception of the illegality of the matter, and it is indeed something that i wish more people DID take seriously - unfortunately Bush\'s carrying us into war, while illegal, doesn\'t change the fact that we are at war.  i have a t-shirt that says it all:

[glb]IMPEACH
REMOVE
JAIL[/glb]

Perceval is selling nearly all their merchanise at a discount for the holidays - we\'ve bought several of these t-shirts to give this year.

here\'s a good quote that sums up my thoughts on how we got where we are today...

"It does not require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority keen to set brush fires in people\'s minds."  Samuel Adams
Peace.

image = <i>"Blue Velvet"</i> (front of 2-sided piece) (c) georgia k griffin - all rights reserved

MoonMaster

Its not about disdain for the military.  Its about accountability.  I would have a lot more respect for the Bush administration if they would admit they were wrong, and make a serious effort to fix their mistakes.  This will never happen though because they have selfish motives that go beyond what\'s right and wrong for all the people, American or Iraqi.  

In response to Bush\'s dwindling popularity republicans are looking to Democrats and saying, "Ok, well what do you suggest?"  Someone in the party really needs to step up with a firm answer to that or we\'ll have another John Kerry on our hands in \'08.  
Yours truly, Thomas J.

gkg

nearly a year ago i told my son i thought the GOP would consider putting Condi Rice up in 2008 - lo and behold, NewsMax.com - a right wing hawk "news agency cum polling group" - is floating that very idea right now and reporting their findings to any TV/Radio station that will accept their statistics.  i checked into that poll.  in order to respond you are required to give them your email info etc., and oh boy, you get a discount for a GOP shill\'s book.  naturally, the questions are geared toward a positive GOP image, and most people are disinclined to be  put on a GOP e-mailing list just to respond in a poll.

i agree, we need a really strong candidate, and much as i would prefer there to be a broader field of candidates and parties, now is not the time - that cost us a lot in the last two elections and unfortunately until we break the GOP strangle hold on the House & Senate, we\'re not going to get ANYTHING accomplished to stop the corporatization of America, and certainly nothing to get us out of the WAR business.
Peace.

image = <i>"Blue Velvet"</i> (front of 2-sided piece) (c) georgia k griffin - all rights reserved

dirtface

December 10, 2005, 04:32:04 pm #20 Last Edit: December 10, 2005, 04:32:39 pm by dirtface
Quote Someone in the party really needs to step up with a firm answer to that or we\'ll have another John Kerry on our hands in \'08.  

So what do you think? Lieberman? ::)

MoonMaster

Lieberman has good ideas and stronger convictions than Kerry.  I can\'t think of any "perfect" candidates though.  I\'m really expecting the democrats to go with Hillary in \'08.
Yours truly, Thomas J.

dirtface

QuoteLieberman has good ideas and stronger convictions than Kerry.

O
M
G
N
o

Think Feingold and we may be talking about something of interest.  

gkg

some are saying Barack Obama, and i think Pelosi has some thoughts in that direction.
Peace.

image = <i>"Blue Velvet"</i> (front of 2-sided piece) (c) georgia k griffin - all rights reserved

D.O.D

  GKG ,S thread on "served  triggered many new thoughts  and here she succeeded admirably in her purpose.  The confusion about are we at war or are\'nt we ? is small wonder. The last official  \'declaration of war " was World War 2. Roosevelt asked Congress  for the declaration  and got it unanimously. The entire population was brought into the conflict... total mobilization !... draft, rationing, etc. With it came powerful central authority and partial, but very serious surrender of our bill of rights. Men and women went into service and swore allegiance to " The articles of War ". Since that time our political leaders have avoided  a declaration of war but not war itself. They deviously committed this country  to war and bloodshed while stating that we are not at war- Korea, Veitnam. Iraq, and on and on ! Thousands died without unanimous consent. World War 2 took away some of our freedom that we may never regain.

gkg

thank you, D.O.D - for bringing the purpose back to focus.

i am seen by some as alarmist, and yet i go on.  why?  i follow the simple premise in life = if not me, who?  if not now, when?  if not here, where?

it\'s not about my life - that\'s half spent and i\'ve loved well and hard, but i have sons i fear would have their lives cut far too short if the draft comes back, i have a grandson i fear may grow up to see the world spiraling out of control.

i broke bread as a child with people how had been tortured and yet went about quietly struggling for their freedom.  i admired my parents for being examples of the American ideal, and loved my country even before i knew what it was to live on her soil.  i still love my country, as one loves a mother who has fallen on hard times drawn by the sway of an abusive powerdrunk lout.  i see her need to be made safe from the madman and cleansed of the horrible paranoia and fearful hate that grips her every move.
Peace.

image = <i>"Blue Velvet"</i> (front of 2-sided piece) (c) georgia k griffin - all rights reserved