Travis Dickerson Recording Studio Forum

TDRS artists, music and related topics => TDRS artists, music and related topics => Topic started by: DroidHunter13 on October 10, 2012, 01:26:45 am

Title: Shadows Between the Sky repress?
Post by: DroidHunter13 on October 10, 2012, 01:26:45 am
I promise Travis that this will be the last time I ever post this question, but I was just thinking about it. Is there any speculation on when Shadows will be repressed?
Title: Re: Shadows Between the Sky repress?
Post by: Travis on October 10, 2012, 05:57:41 pm
I see there have been a number of speculations going on about whats happening with Cd's we produce and sell here.
First nothing fundamental has changed. That is I continue to work with and record music with all of my friends.
If anything has changed it's really the nature of the music business. In a nut shell, no one buys CD's any more, at least not enough to justify the cost of the studio time used and the pressing costs.
I usually press anything I produce for TDRS even if it never recoups the costs. I'm rethinking that. Bucketheadland is rethinking that too as is everybody who makes and sells CDs. And thats for the first pressing. As I've said before, often the first pressing will eventually sell out but a second pressing will never recoup the costs.  I know you see things listed for stupid prices on ebay and think there is a market for these but really that is a very few, a handful, that pay that kind of money.

So, whats going to happen? Really at the moment music is free. If it's free, why pay for it? Honestly, I don't know. I either record and leave it on my hard drive, which I'm doing now or upload it where it becomes free. I love making music and I want to share what I do and I probably always will, but self funded projects are a poor business model and very limited in the time and energy you can put into them. I think a model like Spotify or Netflix for video makes the most sense. A monthly  fee. But there has to be a good selection and value for the customer and in the case of video getting rights for streaming from a old school mindset is a problem and for Spotify the payments made to the artists are barley more than they make from free downloads. Either way, I think the CD is only for the hard core collector and in any fan base thats very limited. For most musicians touring is the only income potential, and that is expensive and needs to be done carefully if you want to make a living.

What we are seeing here is a massive transitional period for all digital content.  For me, I'm really enjoying making and recording music. I'm doing some of the most interesting and rewarding music I have ever made and everyday I look forward to getting to the studio and doing more. I can't ever imaging not doing that. But how I or anyone involved in any art form makes a living doing it is going to change big time.  Among my peers it's always a topic of conversation.  So.... I'm working on it.



Title: Re: Shadows Between the Sky repress?
Post by: beau810 on October 10, 2012, 08:14:10 pm
Excellent insight Travis, and thank you for it.

As a musician I understand completely and as a collector it saddens me to think that the digital world is winning. 
Title: Re: Shadows Between the Sky repress?
Post by: MuldeR on October 10, 2012, 11:42:23 pm
Quote from: beau810 on October 10, 2012, 08:14:10 pm...and as a collector it saddens me to think that the digital world is winning.


I totally second that!

For me it's still a big difference whether you just quickly listen to some MP3 files on the computer/laptop (which I do too, of course) or whether you put a CD into your CD-Player and take your time to listen to a record in its entirety. Probably that's because I more think in "records" (albums) than in individual songs. At the same time it seems most people nowadays grab one song from here and one song from there and just throw them onto the playlist...

@Travis:
At work we have a "machine" that produces CD's. It's pretty much a normal PC (running on Windows) with several CD/DVD burners and some kind of "robot arm" mounted on the front. It will burn a huge number of CD's automatically, in an "unattended" way. You just configure the job to burn a certain number of discs (like 100) an give it a go. The rest happens completely automatically. Most important: It also has a very good "thermal" disc printer, which will print the discs right after they have been burned. Again fully automatically. Yes, it doesn't produce real "pressed" CD's, only CD-R's. But nowadays there are CD-R's with an "almost silver" data-side. If burned and printed with the "machine" we use at work, 9 out of 10 people won't be able to tell the difference from a "pressed" CD. Now, did you ever consider getting such a machine? It's not THAT expensive. Probably too expensive for a private person, but quite affordable for a record studio, I suppose. And it would certainly be suitable to re-release albums that can't be made available on disc otherwise. At work we use that machine, for example, to produce demo/promo discs, like ~100 discs every time. Well, just a though.

Last but not least: A lot of people thought Vinyl was dead when the CD became popular. But it didn't die after all! Sure, it's not the same as it used to be, but it definitely has its niche. Hopefully the same will happen with CD's.
Title: Re: Shadows Between the Sky repress?
Post by: Travis on October 11, 2012, 12:37:50 am
We have CDr burners and that's how we make some of the box sets. However, we have gone over this a number of times and most people don't want CDrs.  CDr's do have problems playing on car stereos and different players and we do have a much larger return rate on those from people that have trouble with them. Also, downloaded CDs can be had at lossless sample size so it's not like listening to MP3s.
For that matter if your interested in CDrs, everyone now has the ability to download lossless and burn their own and print the art. We're not really needed anymore if that's what your looking for.

I appreciate the input though and I'm listening if that's what enough people want, that's doable.
Title: Re: Shadows Between the Sky repress?
Post by: DroidHunter13 on October 11, 2012, 01:59:00 am
I third what Beau810 said! I'm the kind of person who just HAS to own CD's. Travis, you had mentioned that since music is free, then why pay for it...I just thought I'd say I pay for the music because the artist deserves the money.

Anyways, I wouldn't mind purchasing Shadows with a CDr instead of a regular CD, as long as I have all the artwork and music to go along with it. Another thing I thought of that would be cool and would probably attract more buyers would be to sell Limited Edition signed copies of Shadows, or maybe even throw in a bonus track, as long as Buckethead agrees to do any of that. Now, I don't know if you still keep in touch with Buckethead, but I just thought I'd throw out the idea.
Title: Re: Shadows Between the Sky repress?
Post by: X on October 11, 2012, 04:43:42 am
Those ideas aren't new either. However, I've actually warmed up to the idea of using CD-Rs since they actually last much longer than I had anticipated, and are replaceable yourself once you have the information on a computer. I don't play CDs much in my car anyway.
Title: Re: Shadows Between the Sky repress?
Post by: Travis on October 11, 2012, 03:10:36 pm
How would you feel about a thumb drive with all the art work and maybe even 24 bit wav files?  Burn a disc if you need them. The possibility of extended goodies, art and video.  My car stereo has a USB input on the front and I just plug a thumb drive in.  However, I still see the future as download only.
Title: Re: Shadows Between the Sky repress?
Post by: Tempbucketdog on October 11, 2012, 10:20:12 pm
These are sad times for the music industry. Not only for Tdrs and buckethead but also for upcoming talents. It seems the talent is getting better and better as the years progress but there is not market for them anymore... All of these mind boggling talents will be essentially left hanging with no exposure because of theifs screwing up the industry.

So if you have ever uploaded a song to YouTube, a pirate/share site, ect ect. You can thank yourself for f**king up people's life's work and art from being a viable source of income, to just a hobby. Shame on you... I've only downloaded Giant Robot NTT because it's almost impossible to get a hard copy, but in turn I have spent a small fortune on ALL my other buckethead music.

I don't blame them at all for being skeptical about repressing SBTS.
Title: Re: Shadows Between the Sky repress?
Post by: Nubbins on October 12, 2012, 01:36:08 pm
After the way everyone whined for the Slaughterhouse on the Prairie and A Real Diamond in the Rough re-presses, only to have most people bail when it came time to actually pay up, I wouldn't blame Travis and Buckethead if they never did another repress. I would imagine it's just not worth it financially.
Title: Re: Shadows Between the Sky repress?
Post by: Slaw_Slinger on October 12, 2012, 10:39:17 pm
Quote from: Nubbins on October 12, 2012, 01:36:08 pm
After the way everyone whined for the Slaughterhouse on the Prairie and A Real Diamond in the Rough re-presses, only to have most people bail when it came time to actually pay up, I wouldn't blame Travis and Buckethead if they never did another repress. I would imagine it's just not worth it financially.



Agreed
Title: Re: Shadows Between the Sky repress?
Post by: beau810 on October 15, 2012, 03:10:13 pm
Quote from: Travis on October 11, 2012, 03:10:36 pm
How would you feel about a thumb drive with all the art work and maybe even 24 bit wav files?  Burn a disc if you need them. The possibility of extended goodies, art and video.  My car stereo has a USB input on the front and I just plug a thumb drive in.  However, I still see the future as download only.


Travis,
I think this is a great idea for releases that are unavailable.  The idea of extra content is enticing for a person who already have the recording.  I would purchase it just to have all of that info on file because CDs do not last forever.

I would still love to see the production of CDs as a first and only run (1000.)  The first 100 to 200 could have something about them that makes them limited and would cost just a bit more.  My band made 100 CDs ourselves and with what we put into it and the profit paid for the 1000 we got from Disc Makers.  The first 100 had all the lyrics and extra art too.  Now any time we sell a cd its pure profit... of course we still have hundreds of cds but we are not trying to make a living out of it either.  I guess what I'm saying is that if you did something similar by making the first couple hundred of a run a bit different it would increase the demand.  Then after that demand is complete you'll have to sell the rest of that first and only run.  Then when all of those fans who were unable to get that only run could purchase a thumbdrive or a download with the extra content.

I'm sure your thinking... Extra content?  More than what I already do?  But this might be a way to keep a better flow of income coming your way.  It also scares me that no one has posted anything on this topic either... I dont know? What do you think?

Title: Re: Shadows Between the Sky repress?
Post by: tropicalrooster on October 17, 2012, 06:33:55 am
As I have mentioned in the original thread, if this very album become available again, I will get two copies.

I can prepay them right now.
Title: Re: Shadows Between the Sky repress?
Post by: Tempbucketdog on October 17, 2012, 10:38:26 pm
What amount of prepays would justify a repressing? 100-200 people? Again I don't blame Tdrs for shunning the idea, but out of curiosity what type of figure would you need? Ever thought of a super limited run with extra content and additional album art for incentive? There's a way this would work to make it a profitable endeavor... Maybe not a $100k endeavor, but there's nothing wrong with making a few extra grand here and there...
Title: Re: Shadows Between the Sky repress?
Post by: Mattsie on October 18, 2012, 08:59:36 pm
I think we should get a Kickstarter project started if we want to ever get a reprint, I just don't want to miss out on getting my hands on this beautiful album
Title: Re: Shadows Between the Sky repress?
Post by: ifitquackslikeaduck on October 19, 2012, 04:27:05 pm
Aloha y'all - I just wanted to take another ride on one of my favorite attractions in Bucketheadland , so I found myself here.  This is such an expansive topic I can only imagine the thought provoking banter at the round table with Travis and his colleagues. Do you need another fan opinion? I haven't heard the new pikes yet, I'll wait until I can buy the cds - I'm like that.  I prefer not to do a download right now unless it is the only form that music is in (the rising sun for example). But if I want the music bad enough I'll buy it in whatever form it's being offered. #1 I love listening to music, #2 I am also an avid audio collector.

As for Shadows Travis, my suggestion is let it stay oop. Hey bots...  If you want the music, then buy the download. If you want to collect the cd, then be prepared to pay. I want money spent on pressing more new music rather than re-press gems of old.

I like the idea of thumbdrives or sd-cards, wish I had a player in my car. Package it up nicely with some artwork and I'll buy it. Big B should know he has my wallet in his bucket but he can't survive on kooks like me alone.  But a thumbdrive or cd, or lp is still going to appeal mostly to the collector, not your average consumer. And even if that new blue ray- cd thingy Neil Young has been pushing or cute little thumbdrives shaped like kfc buckets or whatever the band icon is will only be a temporary format imo. The bigger problem of music being free no matter what format it is delivered in will remain.

But really, hasn't music always been free, I don't really feel guilty I get so much free music. I do watch youtube but I don't download anything I'm not supposed to.  As a kid all my music was taped off the radio, friends lps, or stuff checked out from the library. There is so much good music out there that there is no way I can afford to buy all I want to listen to so you goto a friend's house with an older sibling or your Uncles house and pilfer their music and make copies for yourself.  When I found a band I really liked then I would buy the records - that's what started me on my collecting journey. I won't buy any musician's album, my hard earned money only goes to a select few. I think it is a privilege to be a working musician and like to give my money to those that seem to be very grateful to do what they do. As an adult now I am a collector and buy tons of music and merch from the artists I support but there is a lot I'd still like to hear but not pay for, I just can't afford to.

I see one angle of the problem being: we as consumers have seen guys like Ozzy and Simmons make so much money being idiots, and guys on MTV cribs with insane houses and cars that they kinda become stereotypes of what we think musicians are. They obviously are doing well and don't need my money - in fact - they look like they have so much that they won't miss a little if I steal this download. Then you get music exec dudes like Richard Branson - he has made so much money off musicians that he now builds his own spaceships and flies into space. Don't tell me he or guys like him need more money. And when we hear that MC Hammer or David Crosby went bankrupt, there is no sympathy because they made bad decisions, got ripped off by family or did drugs, gambling, hookers, etc..... Life as a musician is a double edged sword.  Here is the twist, most consumers don't differentiate between artists like those mentioned above, and guys like Travis and Buck or your average studio musician. We all know Travis drives a Lamborghini to work and has servants who separate out the colors of m&m's for him before he lays down some tracks while sitting on his 14 karat gold piano bench.  I think most people clump all musicians together and when we rip off the jokers at the top of the mountain justified or not, all the guys below get hurt too - really hurt.

The only real way to make money as a musician nowadays seems to be endorsements. Sell your song/image/name to a big corporation and you'll get a nice paycheck (be sure to stick it away). If you wanna work, you need to tour and sell merchandise (branding yourself). I'd like to see pay per view live streaming of concerts, I think that is an untapped market. Thumbdrives with multiple albums and bonus material is a good idea but wont last too long. Selling music as we knew it is dead. The music industry will claim that it was us, the consumers, who created this problem but I disagree. Overpriced cds and American Idol manufactured mainstream musicians, imo, is what is really killing the music industry not to mention the lack of new ideas in mainstream music. I like musicians like my fish - raw. I'm not sure what the future holds for selling music but I am interested. The corporate music industry destroyed itself from the inside out. Stories of prima-donnas, excess and crooked record managers and moguls make the consumers apathetic to the problems of the music industry, I mean "you guys get to make music while I dig ditches, hard for me to feel sorry if you don't make money" is an attitude I feel sometimes. But that is not my attitude to little guys like TDRS and other independent recording studios. I know you guys work hard sometimes.

As a music lover I will buy downloads, itunes, a netflix model or whatever the form is because there is no escaping it. People don't like change and are afraid because they don't know how to burn a downloaded album to disc or print the artwork on the right paper, but when those bugs are worked out, downloads is the way. Most music is recorded digitally nowadays and will be sold that way - get used to it. BUT there is still the collector and small runs of vinyl, cds, or thumbdrives will still be made available - you HAVE to give me something with a colorful package that I can hold in my hands and collect. But I know that market is shrinking and the goods are gonna cost more. But I've been a collector all my life from 25ยข cds at yard sales to $250 cds on ebay, I'll continue to pay cause that's what I do.

Wow - I forgot how easy it is to type away and you forgot how long winded I can be. I should go back and edit all those random thoughts but............eh, you get the point right?!

Mahalos for your forum Travis! Aloha everyone - duck
Title: Re: Shadows Between the Sky repress?
Post by: Nubbins on October 20, 2012, 01:41:14 am
Good to hear from you Duck, and I agree with you 100%!
Title: Re: Shadows Between the Sky repress?
Post by: ifitquackslikeaduck on October 22, 2012, 08:00:34 am
hey nub, thnx! I know I went off a little above so I'll keep this short and not derail the thread too much.

I'm not too interested in the repressing of Shadows but I am interested in the topic of selling cds and digital media. My question to Travis is, are major record companies even trying to sell me music?, I'm in my 40's. Now my kids are a whole different story, they are young and I know the digital world is already embedded in them. Listening to music, reading books, watching movies is SOOOOOOO different than when I was young. I'm trying hard to keep up because I don't want to be out of touch with my kids generation. I guess it is the marketing that gets me so pissed, my daughter came home from school last week and now loves "bustem veever". Why is their so much Justin Beiber merch? (backpacks, purses, tshirts, games & junk). Is he really that good or do the music companies just push him so much and mainstream people gobble it up so that now my daughter wants a Justin Beiber folder because all the other sheep at school have one? She has never even heard one of his songs afaik. When I was 6 I can't think of any music or musicians that were marketed towards me. My kids already are asking for one of those nooks or kindles, a tablet or a smart phone. It's hard to say no, they are like wizards on those things and I feel like it is just a sign of what is to come. They can't sell it to me because I'm too old and unimpressed but my kids eat this stuff up and that is who I think all this digital media is being marketed to ultimately. I think these devices are going to some extent replace cds, dvds, books - they already are. The thing I don't like most about paying for a download is I just don't feel like I'm getting the same value for a download as a physical cd but I'm not sure the younger generations feel that way and they are driving the car imo. I don't think cds are going to go extinct anytime soon because there are still alot of old dudes in the music biz who like doing things the old way, not too mention the whole collectors market but in 20 years or so when my kids are adults I think cds will just be a thing of the past.
Title: Re: Shadows Between the Sky repress?
Post by: Travis on October 23, 2012, 05:14:27 pm
Hey Duck, good to see you back.

I agree with most of what you said above. I would add I don't blame anyone for downloading music. It's there, it's free. It's a bit like selling skipping stones at the beach or maybe a better way to look at it is selling water. Water is basically free, you pay a little to have it piped into your house, better than carrying it. And you can pay a premium if you want it packaged nicely in a little plastic bottle. Now that so much intellectual property has been digitized it's extremely difficult to find a compelling reason to pay for something that can't be controlled. I think this is a failure of the producers of the content not to protect it, not a failure of the consumer to exercise some as yet unknown capacity to do the right thing. To get people to do the right thing has always involved a consensus that it's the right thing and a viable alternative and with music ( and all other digital media) that just doesn't exist yet.

I'm not quite sure why there isn't more attempts to protect digital property. It's potentially big business and to date very little in the way of viable DRM exist and ways of plugging the analog hole are weak. Usually these just inconvenience the few who are really doing the right thing and to those that don't its a joke. I do think this will change.

The music business has always been a tricky one. Music needs to be free to a certain extent or no one would hear enough to know they want to own it. Before the digital age it was FM radio. I think Youtube and the like play an important role. Also, popular music only became big business when the baby boom generation came of age. The great age of popular music started with Elvis, through the Beatles and ended with the CD. Generation X and subsequent generations have splintered the music business in to very small demographics  . These groups largely are invisible to each other and between the small numbers of fans and the inability to capitalize on product the record companies have abandoned them ( this is you!). Record companies are still around doing what they have always done and that is trying to create or capitalize on megatrends. Justin Beiber is just the latest.
In the heyday of baby boom rock, one strategy was to sign unknowns and try to bring them along to the mainstream. Most failed but enough succeeded to create a secondary existence of lesser popular music, the underground of baby boom rock. Thats is all gone. The CD is dead! It's not coming back.

Music is not gone. In fact there is more than ever. That may not necessarily be a good thing as there is an unbelievable amount of static you have to get through to find good stuff. If your not a musician you know somebody who is and they have a band or a record and Facebook page and videos on Youtube and music on Bandcamp in the millions. The underground music scene has fragmented down to every individual on the planet. Try to market that!

So...

I think it comes down to, things are changing radically. If you don't get why CDs aren't repressed because it sure seems like there is a market for it, it's because your assuming the market is much larger that it is. I post this every few years as old fans move on and new ones come along. The last time we did a pre-pay repressing it was for two CDs and after two months we had 60 pre-pays.  I repressed them anyway and it took almost two years to brake even tying up cash I might have used to produce newer music.

Music is not going away. This will get sorted out. But in the meantime......


Title: Re: Shadows Between the Sky repress?
Post by: X on October 24, 2012, 07:31:38 am
There is one particular thing about Shadows that makes repressing this album different than any of the other albums for me. I primarily buy music via iTunes if it's not available on CD (I did so with Jordan and Forgotten Trail). However, the iTunes version of this album is still missing City of Woe which I've heard is one of the best ones on the album. iTunes also forces all the files to be downloaded as AAC which takes up too much room and often glitches on my computer. With CDs I have more freedom with how to process the information. Otherwise I would've downloaded the album from iTunes a long time ago.
Title: Re: Shadows Between the Sky repress?
Post by: nick_reinstein on October 24, 2012, 11:05:24 am
Forgotten Trail is on Albino Slug and iTunes has some settings to choose what format you want.

What I want from the Big B is a box set.  Imagine having his entire collection with original artwork all in one set.  Imagine how heavy that would be.
Title: Re: Shadows Between the Sky repress?
Post by: DroidHunter13 on October 24, 2012, 08:14:54 pm
Quote from: nick_reinstein on October 24, 2012, 11:05:24 am
Forgotten Trail is on Albino Slug and iTunes has some settings to choose what format you want.

What I want from the Big B is a box set.  Imagine having his entire collection with original artwork all in one set.  Imagine how heavy that would be.

Forgotten Trail IS on Albino Slug...but there is a different version on Itunes with an extended jam solo. It's much better than the CD version! You should check that out.
Title: Re: Shadows Between the Sky repress?
Post by: nick_reinstein on October 25, 2012, 12:14:33 am
Where are there different versions?  I feel like I now have no idea how incomplete my Buckethead collection actually is now. 

What other albums have different versions depending on which media I want?
Title: Re: Shadows Between the Sky repress?
Post by: beau810 on October 26, 2012, 12:47:03 pm
I had a student let me listen to another version Jordan with what sounded like Bootsy Collins on bass.  It was an extended jam session... that was the only time I have seen or heard about it. 

Still need to get the Forgotten Trail extended jam too.
Title: Re: Shadows Between the Sky repress?
Post by: X on October 26, 2012, 09:03:33 pm
Quote from: nick_reinstein on October 25, 2012, 12:14:33 am
Where are there different versions?  I feel like I now have no idea how incomplete my Buckethead collection actually is now. 

What other albums have different versions depending on which media I want?


As far as I'm concerned, Forgotten Trail is the only Buckethead song in which you benefit more from buying it on iTunes rather than on the CD. Shadows Between The Sky works vice versa though, so it makes the CD more valuable.
Title: Re: Shadows Between the Sky repress?
Post by: Slaw_Slinger on October 28, 2012, 06:11:39 pm
I miss the actual brick and mortar record (book, movie-DVD/VHS) buying experience.  Especially sad as I was at Tower when they were shutting down.
Whatever Travis does is fine by me! 
Like Duckhead. I remember the days of waiting for a favorite song to come over the radio to tape it.  It really wasn't that long ago!
OK, just my two cents.  Have to go batten down the hatches in anticipation of this crazy storm.
Missed you, Duck!