Travis Dickerson Recording Studio Forum

Cat Stevens, now called Yusuf Islam, is being deported "on national security grounds."

Yusef Islam\'s a Muslim.  he condemned the 9/11 attack, as most true Islamic followers did.  he has condemned the beheadings even as he disagrees with and possibly condemns the war.  is Peace Train a threat?  no.  monotonous, yeah i could see that, but not a threat.  none of his music is a threat, and he\'s a peaceful man - how is he a threat?  so far as i have heard, here anyway, no one much seems to be hitting the airwaves in outrage.  

dangerous precedents are being set and few people seem to be raising the alarm.  i know, it\'s a dangerous thing to do, to stand up and say "i love my country enough to tell it when it\'s wrong - and this is wrong."  i applaud all those who do - and fear for them - as i fear for my own safety when i drive around with my peace stickers, NION, downing the so called Patriot Act, and asking people to vote Bush out of office.

some people may ask why i\'m railing on this site - a music related site.  i do so because this is a musician being deported for his views.  as the government obviously knows, music is an art, it reaches the minds and hearts of people all over the world.  all artists are messengers for their points of view - whatever they may be - and i call on all artists to be watchful and vigilent in keeping their word true to their point of view.

the next person deported could be you, if you allow a government to hold such control on thought and speech - whatever your point of view - i greatly fear your right to express it is in danger.

[glb]"Speak your mind, even if your voice shakes!" Maggie Kuhn[/glb]

Article link: http://www.rollingstone.com/news/story/_/id/6511671/catstevens?pageid=rs.NewsArchive&pageregion=mainRegion&rnd=1095888089984&has-player=true&version=6.0.12.872


If you want to read the future of the U.S. , read the Orwellean classic, "1984".

It was actually penned about the government of Great Britain, and was initially titled "1948 " , in keeping with the contemporary politic of Orwell\'s time . However, fearing Government censure GO changed the title to project a system of "Big Brother" politics of the future.

There are many aspects portrayed in that fictional work that are so similar in nature to those offices and policies at work in our U.S. government today, and or hold potential to enactment in future, that it\'s almost as if Orwell was a prophet rather than an author of  literary works.

I think it\'s criminal in itself that Yusuf Islam was denied entry into a country that boasts pride in affording it\'s citizens freedom of religion, simply because of his religious faith. I think it examples ignorance at the highest level, and with this President ignorance is par for the course, that Yusuf\'s music would further the reasons for his being on a watch list.

Given the breach to security that has passed through airport screening systems right here in U.S. airports , this action toward a man who has never exampled himself a threat in any way toward the U.S. , seem\'s even more suspect in that they detained him only because he was on an inbound flight and solely because they suspect he\'s linked to terrorists because he\'s a Muslim who sings.

Since when is it Un~American or supportive of terrorism, to disagree with or hold an opinion, about  the President or U.S. politics? And since when is it considered a terrorist threat that anyone outside the U.S. holds an opinion as well?!

Did I miss the Bill before Congress that provided a measure that it is criminal to think outside the box!? (http://www.imgmag.com/images/lyoness/EMOTICONS/eyebrow.gif)
Oh hell, no I didn\'t. * Smacks self *  It\'s the U.S. Patriot Act ! What was I thinking!?

Did I vote for this!? Did You!?

It\'s all so very pathetic and yet, as GkG said, a dire warning to every citizen of this Country.
It\'s easy to look at this latest news and say,

 "Well, if it helps to make us safer, I don\'t mind giving up a few rights!"

Until it is You.

And meanwhile you know your no threat to the U.S. . You  know your not affiliated with terrorists, and that you love your country and yet you have the right, indeed you have been raised to believe it is a right, to speak freely in this Country.

 That is the crux of freedom and democracy, yes?!

And yet it\'s you that is now detained, or trespassed against by that democratic government your told you elected into power. As it effect\'s trespass against your freedom and rights, because somewhere out there there\'s someone else saying that same thing you did long ago;

 "Well, if it helps to make us safer, I don\'t mind giving up a few rights!" *

*I actually witnessed a woman interviewed by the press say this exact quote, when asked about her opinion regarding Federal agents and local police detaining and searching the car of 3 Arab medical students , on their way to a U.S. University, after a woman in a Diner reported them as terror suspects. Remember that news flash and the live coverage that followed!?

Officers found nothing after their search and interview of these "suspects", and yet the three students whom a woman reported as speaking Arabic and also saying in English that they supported the horror of 911, lives were ruined forever. And the Arabic conversation she over heard from 3 booth\'s away?  Of the three young men in question, in truth, only 1 spoke Arabic.  Makes for a very one sided conversation, don\'t you think!?

Makes for one heck of an example of profiling and breach of privacy, as well as exampling lack of probable cause, as well.  And yet all that means nothing because these three innocent men were denied access to the University they were bound for when detained and because of fear and racism, their dreams of becoming Doctors so as to help people, were smashed in the moments it took to dial 911!  The irony that Arab students futures were destroyed because a racist dialed 911, is amazing!

Can you smell your freedom burning.....yet!?



[size=13]First They Came for the Jews[/size]
Pastor Martin Niemöller

First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the Communists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me.



You see, tyrants effecting oppressive agenda\'s always make history. However it\'s complacence in the face of the oppression that is the sad epitaph of contemporary history.

thank you Ocean!

the main thing that runs through my mind is that we were attacked for what we stood for - the liberty and justice for all, the right to freedoms for all - and as we tear down these rights and liberties, as we deny justice, they have won.  we lose who we are, and they have won.  we cannot allow that to happen.

to paraphrase Jewel: "Freedom can\'t deny the temptation, becomes the oppressor"

if we allow that precient line to come to fruition we cease to be the America we were on the day we were attacked.   we become an embittered, petty and spiteful caricature of the nation we were.

denying POW rights and justice to those who attacked us, may have attacked us, once thought of attacking us, we imagine wanted to attack us, might some day long to attack us - that goes against everything we stand (stood?) for.

Bravo ladies... Thank you for having the courage to speak as you have and share this information with us. It is extremly important for all of us to pay attention to our world around us and use our voices in all aspects as we can. I have received an education here and I am greatful.

Bravo ladies... Thank you for having the courage to speak as you have and share this information with us.

Ditto!  ;D
Peace 8)
Bella )O(

As long as Bubba remains in the oval office we can continue to watch our rights - especially FREE SPEACH - circle the bowl.

I have recently read some articles sent by a friend back in NYC from the NY Times.  For the Repub Convention, the ONLY permit for demonstration that was issued and allowed to be directly across the street was.... wait for it.... Right to Lifers. EVERYONE else was resticted to stay at least 8 city blocks away!! Since when can the governmentt tell us where and when free and peaceful assembly can take place. What did they think that the groups that practice civil disobedience were going to go against their entire ideology and beat Bush to death with their Berkinstocks??  ::)

The FBI went to the leaders of the most prominet and active protest groups and intimidated many to staying away from NY during the convention.

That the FL state police under the direction of Bubba\'s brother - you know the one, the govenor that helped him steal the 2000 election - the one with the VICATIN addicted daughter - to harrass the leaders in the black community to not rally the black vote in FL. So that they can try to steal another election.

Having been a former NYer, I really USED to like Giuliani. He was a good mayor. There were more cops and less crime. I was positively ill at his comments at the convention. (as much as I was disgusted- it\'s like a bad car accident- you have to look).  The sad truth is that Giuliani, like the Bush administration remains locked into nation/state thinking. Terrorism is like communism, they seem to think, and you defeat it by flipping counties into the freedom collum. In fact, it has become a sort of "hidden hand" belief on a par with faith that free markets cure all woes. "The hatred and anger in the middle east arises form the lack of responsible governments," Giuliani said. Freedom will defeat terrorists, "The long term answer to ending global terrorism is goverments that are free and accountable." Tell that to the families of the victims of the Oklahoma City bombing!

I was raised in the church of politics. I was taken to my first protest rally (No Nukes) when I was 6. I have marched in NY 3 times and on Washington twice, and never have I heard of such abuses to the 1st Amendment. I thought that all ended with thepassing of the Miranda Act and the Equal Rights Amendment. The Bush administration has dragged us back into one of the worst episodes of our domestic history of the last century. If he successfully STEALS another election, I will protest so loudly from AZ right up to the BARRICADES in front of the White House. And they can arrest me if they want to, but I will NEVER stop speaking my mind!

[glb]Pinko Liberal Commie Democrat[/glb]Beatnik   8)

(http://www.imgmag.com/images/lyoness/EMOTICONS/Cuddle.gif) Well said Beatnik!

And bravo to everyone who shares and reads this thread. That\'s how we learn , and that\'s how we unite to change that which we do not approve of, in a "representative" democracy.
Dialogue is the first step to changing the world. It\'s like they say, if you don\'t stand for something you\'ll fall for anything.

This November 2nd is election day in the U.S. and  is also All Saints Day , per the Christian calendar . Yet another irony considering George W. has stated on the record that "God" told him to run for office! I wonder what God told him to later steal the election through Brother\'s complicity!? *cough*  

And this November 2nd is the first election where I will not vote for a Presidential candidate.
For so many years I have posted my choice for what amounts to the lesser of two evils, remembering, as I cast my vote, that admonishing about the responsibility inherent in  lending a voice to my National future; "If you don\'t vote, don\'t bitch!"

Well I\'ve voted and I\'ve bitched. And regardless of whether or not I cast my choice into the lot, someone wins!  This year I refuse to be pressured into electing any evil into office. That is my vote! To not be the one responsible for putting my trust, my vote,  to elect evil into power over my country and my people.

George W. is the worst president to sit the seat, in the history of this Country. He points his finger at Nation\'s abroad and calls their leadership  dictators and oppressors and yet we the people of the United States know, have experienced, that dictator and opressor are applications right here in this free republic. That is, every single day, becoming less so.

When the U.S. Patriot Act was passed, under this president, the freedom in America died! It became the property, under the oversight, of the government we\'re told we elected into office.  

In the early twentieth century the watch word from Big Brother government was "Communist". It was a word that struck fear into all who heard it, and destroyed all who were afforded it\'s brand, much like the scarlet letter of old.

Black Lists were born in Hollyweird, and actors , artists of the stage, lives were destroyed . Average citizens were coaxed into becoming spy\'s on their neighbors. Told it was their "patriotic" duty to report any suspicious activity, for the "good of the Country".
Much like the atmosphere of the 16 and 17th century, were then the watch word was "Heritic" and "Witch", and that good neighbor\'s report to the local magistrate would result in that other neighbor disappearing in the middle of the night, never to be seen again until they were hanged, or chained to the pyre and burned for the good of the village.

Today in the 21st century the watchword is "terrorist". And yet again it is proven that if we do not learn from our history we are condemned to repeat it.  

Right after 911, when our hearts were still cleaved in twain and some networks broadcast the activity at ground zero around the clock so that we would never forget the tragedy that changed our Nation forever, National news encouraged citizens to watch their neighbors for any suspicious activity. We were told it was our duty to protect our future and help prevent another attack on our home land.
I remember how my company and those who served the local community and gained access into client/customer\'s , homes were told to report to the local authorities if we saw anything of a terrorist nature or suspicious as anti~American propaganda!

I wonder to this day how many innocent people had Federal Agents knocking at their door because the gas man took the admonishion seriously and reported them because he saw a Che Guevara poster through a window!?  :-/

The admonishion from our Government today has quite literally made us our brothers (and sisters) keeper.

Look around at your local neighborhoods and you\'ll witness the change that\'s taking place in this free country and right before your eyes. Big Brother eyes stand watch at intersections, holding a panoramic access to every day life.
We\'re told it\'s for traffic control even though the ticket\'s issued for violations at those intersections are in violation of the 6th Amendment, and yet we pay the ticket when it arrives in the mail because we don\'t think we can dare fight it.  I wonder though if we ask why those camera\'s stand watch over pedestrian intersections!?  
Did you know there\'s a software in place through that monitoring system that can ID you through facial characteristics, even if your wearing a disguise or have had reconstructive plastic surgery!?
Such a system is in place and the authorities are so proud of it that they allowed the media to report on the security system currently in effect in Ybor City Florida.

Ahhhh Orwell, you sly devil! Big Brother is watching indeed!

I wonder, in the years to come , how we shall answer if we allow ourselves to  believe those excuses afforded our National opression. What we shall say when that child, the precious innocent new life facing a dire future,  toddles up , tug\'s on our pant leg and gazes at us in wide eyed innocence and asks,

"Mommy, what was freedom like?"

 what will be our answer!? Will we then be able to say we don\'t remember because it was taken away for their own good!?  Will we then believe it ourselves!?

Article Link: http://www.ndtv.com/ent/musicworldstory.asp?section=Music&slug=Stevens+reacts+on+deportation&id=3017

[glb]Stevens reacts on deportation  [/glb]
Thursday, September 23, 2004 (New York):


It\'s been one of the most high profile fallouts of the American anti terrorism campaign. One of the greatest pop singers of the 70\'s Cat Stevens was deported yesterday from the United States.

His fault is to have converted to Islam 30 years ago. His name is on a US watch list for terrorists.

The 56 year old Stevens changed his name to Yusuf Islam when he converted to Islam and stopped his singing career in 1977.

He was travelling with his daughter on a United Airlines flight on Tuesday from London to Washington when American officials diverted the plane 600 miles to Bangor, Maine and prevented him from entering US territory.

"I am totally shocked, obviously, I mean, half of me wants to smile and half of me wants to growl. I was travelling to Nashville, actually with my daughter to initiate some recordings and, you know, suddenly we were forced to land and suddenly I was being interrogated by all these FBI officers," said the singer.

"The whole thing is totally ridiculous, everybody knows who I am, you know, I am no secret figure. Everybody knows my campaigning for charity, for peace, and there has got to be a whole lot of explanations - hopefully there\'ll be that," he added.

The move has outraged British Muslims and led Foreign Secretary Jack Straw to complain personally to US Secretary of State Colin Powell at the United Nations. But according to the US Homeland Security, the United States had information that Yusuf Islam, who last visited the United States in May, had donated money to the militant Islamic group Hamas.

In fact, Yusuf Islam was denied entry to Israel in 2000 after the authorities there accused him of supporting Hamas. He denied the charges then and said his charitable donations were for humanitarian causes.

Among the charities he has supported are children affected by war in Bosnia and Iraq as well as victims of the September 11, 2001, attacks against America, which he condemned.

But, as he discovered, with a name like Yusuf Islam he\'ll always be followed by a shadow of suspicion when he visits the US.  

there are millions of people, americans among them, who donate to charity all over the world.  some of the largest donations to the IRA come from the USA.  i understand that the majority of donations to the Israeli settlement groups comes from the USA.  most people give to organizations on humanitary grounds.  i would believe that sometimes they are completely unaware that those donations may be passed on to violent counterparts.

Excellent point.

And I wonder how many of those American\'s who donate , for humanitarian reasons and in ignorance of where their money may go, realize that under the U.S. Patriot Act , they can be arrested , held without access to an attorney or telephone for up to 3 days, for contributing to those terrorists they had no idea were the actual people receiving those funds?

and if the gov\'t decides to play hard ball they can pull what they did to Jose Padilla.  it\'s a really bizarre country right now.

For those who may not know about Jose Padilla, a quick FYI:

[glb]Motion for speedier trial for Jose Padilla denied[/glb]

(Charleston-AP) Aug. 25, 2004 - A federal judge has denied a motion for a speedier hearing in the case of a man being held in Charleston as an enemy combatant.

The government alleges that Jose Padilla was part of an al-Qaida plot to set off a radiological bomb. US Magistrate Judge Robert Carr wrote says the court will not be rushed to judgment. But Carr also says the case will not be delayed.

Padilla was arrested after the September 11th terror attacks. The Brooklyn, New York-native has been housed in the brig at the Charleston Naval Weapons Station and prevented from challenging his detention. His attorneys says he should be released because he has not been charged with a crime.

Article Link:  http://www.wistv.com/Global/story.asp?S=2220492&nav=0RaPQFFF

Somewhere , on the other side of the veil, the forefathers of our Country are weeping!  :\'(

QuoteSomewhere , on the other side of the veil, the forefathers of our Country are weeping!

my own father is right there with them.  on this side, we can\'t afford to weep - we need to act.  to stir to action.  there is far to much complaciency in this country.  one\'s inaction is implicit approval of the status quo and we cannot affort to continue down this path.

Ocean - I BEG YOU TO VOTE!! :\'(

 I understand that it seems we always have to choose the lesser of 2 evils. But that IS politics. Every politician lies to some extent, oviously some more than others. But not to vote?! That is the attitdue that will get Bush back in for another 4 years. If you must dissent in the voting process, cast it for Nader! (if he actually gets on any ballots - with Repub funding no less -that is another tirade) The repubs want to sooo discourage sooo many from voting - because they know that is the only way to win the election.  Thsi country will NOT tolerate another stolen election - and I promote absolute rioting if they do. Not that I think Gore was a good choice - but he couldn\'t have been WORSE than Bush.

What the REAL discussion should be, is why isn\'t / hasn\'t Cngress changed the Constituion regarding elections???? Let\'s face it - the true beauty of our Constituion is the ability to add and amend it.

[glb]THE ELECTORAL COLLEGE IS NO LONGER NECCESSARY!!![/glb]

It made sense when it was written in the late 18th century, as there really was NO mass communication. But folks we are in the information age!! It should be the popular vote that carries the winner into the Oval office and nothing else!!

Or if we can\'t agree on getting rid of it all together, than have the electoral votes SPLIT between candidates. It is absurd that a candidate can win by a margin of 1% and take ALL the electoral votes for that state. That does NOT represent the true populace vote of the constitents in that state does it?
Personally I have signed up to cast a [glb]PAPER BALLOT. [/glb]

The computerized voting machines have no paper records for a recount!! An the repubs are conting on that again as they did in FL in 2000. Besides, the computer code is so badly written in these computers that it would not take much to tamper with them just enought to skew results.

[glb]So here is my PAPER BALLOT! Recount this Bubba!!![/glb]

ROCK THE VOTE!!

Beatnik  8)

i understand the urge to say "cast a vote for Nader if you dissent" but in this particular election we are still bound by the electoral college, so that is purely and simply a vote for the status quo.  he had good intentions long ago, but now the man is on an ego trip funded by the GOP.

i agree that the electoral college needs to go, but that will be a long time coming.  in the mean time, we cannot really treat our consititution like something we can take up and let down with the styles.  it must be treated as a very serious undertaking with massive consent by the people.  otherwise we get into using it as an ordinary legislative tool, which it clearly is not and was never intended to be.  we have other, more appropriate, avenues for standard legislation.

if you\'ve been to my site you know i have a link to Rock the Vote - if you haven\'t been there and you need to register - go direct to the source:
//www.rockthevote.com

i strongly advocate absentee voting.  yes, some are trying to say that can be manipulated like the electronic voting - i say it\'s the best method we have right now.  you don\'t have to go to a polling place, you don\'t have to worry that someone hacked your vote, you don\'t really have to worry at all - why? i hear you asking - i\'ll tell ya kiddies, because you can do what Max and I have done for some time now - you can photocopy the mother before you mail it and attach it to the stub that you keep when you send it in.  

there you have in your hot little hand (date stamped if you\'re as anal as i am ;)) the item as you submitted it and if there is ever a reason for someone to recheck your vote you have your ballot number and the corresponding copy of exactly how you voted.

period, end of BS from GWB and Co. - no Supremes needed.

(((HUGS)))) *offers tissue to Beatnik* ;)

No worries love, I am going to vote. I\'m just not going to vote for the presidential candidates! As for Nader, and per what you said about the Republican\'s $upporting him to their own ends in the election, I think my casting a vote for him would not only support GW\'s party motives, but also elect that other evil into office. (Kerry and that\'s my humble O. so if you have to throw something, make it eclairs so it teaches me a serious lesson! :) )

If nothing else I\'ll write my own name into the blank. (I too have applied for a paper ballot. )
Sure, it may lend to the very same machine as a vote for Nader, but one thing for sure, I know I\'m not corrupt! Ok,  I may be corrupt but I\'m not bought, let\'s put it that way! *evYl grinZ* (http://www.imgmag.com/images/lyoness/EMOTICONS/sneaky.gif)

Also, regarding the argument  for dismanteling the electoral college; I\'ve noticed  of late that this debate has entered  the media as well. I think before we dismantel we need to find a replacement for the current system and go from there.

For those who do not know about the processes involved in our National election\'s via/ the oversight of the electoral college, please consider this link: http://www.fec.gov/pages/ecworks.htm

lovely Ocean, it is by all means your right to waive the vote.  i don\'t know why you would choose to do so really, i am not familiar with your feelings on Kerry being evil (although politicians can tend to be that way) - all i know in my heart of hearts is that every vote not cast toward Kerry is in essence a vote for the status quo.  a vote actually cast for anyone other than Kerry tips the scales toward Bush - if you\'re not going to vote for Kerry then you may want to refrain from casting a vote at all unless you want the election to go to Bush.  i don\'t think that\'s what you want.

sadly, as my son pointed out, when you reach adulthood you learn that you cannot always have ideal choices to make.  sometimes it\'s the less appalling of the two that you have to support, in order to thwart the unthinkable weasel from taking the office again.

   GKG I agree!

   Your words so beautiful and very important!

   I agree and support you!

   Best Wishes for all friends and Kisses!

  Edjane Maps

   :-* :-* :-* ;)

Ocean - you are too funny! I will throw eclairs at you if you return the favor!! Then we can pig out!  ;D

I had a long road with my husband , who used to claim he was a repub, but could not back it up by clear opinions that follow the elephant platform. He was basically bullied by his troglodyte father into think that he was. What a hard job it wsa to free his mind, to find his own opinions.

Then an intersting thing happened. I got laid off. I was with Morgan Stanley for almost 4 years and got caught in the 3rd round of layoffs related to 911. (they were the LARGEST tenat in the trade centers - 1 million sq feet) Then just after 6 months of looking, I landed my current job (corporate trainer for La-Z-Boy). 6 weeks after I started, he lost his job, as the restaurant closed. He was out of work for 9 months, until recently he went back to school to finish his bachelors,  as he has seen first hand how that hurt his search.

So we apply for aide to send him to school. Our estimated per person income was about $15,400, as we had only one paycheck between us. Arizona state, Vermont state, and the federal government turned us down. They were willing to give us loans... yeah no thanks we have enough debt. His repub father threw a fit, because we turned to his deep pockets to pay for it. So my newly educated husband - who is now a registered Dem, said "It is because of Bush - he underfunded education by like 12 BILLION dollars. Bush\'s veiw of higher education is that if you can afford it - you don\'t go, which is fine because the HAVES and the HAVE MORES need servants!" Wow, he was pissed to say the least! I was so proud.

He realises that not voting or paying attention, the country went to hell in a hand basket mighty quick. He understands how it effects him personally. I will continue to raise the conciousness of those who will listen. But it is damn hard getting their heads pulled out of the ground!

Three purple hearts trumps two DUI\'s!

Cheney, Bush and Ashcroft, the REAL axis of evil!

If you aren\'t totally appalled - you have not been paying attention!

4 Years was good enough for his father!

Rock the vote!!

Beatnik  8)

bem, Edjane Maps.  muito obrigado.   ;)


hey, at least his father was actually elected and not handed the decision by GOP stoodges, er judges.

I wish I could vote in the US election...many times!

(((No more War)))  :\'(

many American citizens feel the same way -  :\'(

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20040922/us_nm/campaign_vote_dc_5

[glb]LOVE, ABOVE ALL[/glb]

[glb]"I will throw eclairs at you if you return the favor!! Then we can pig out!" Beatnik[/glb]


(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v223/GoddessPrayer/eclairs.gif)  Armed and ready bebe! *chuckles* Attention hips! Prepare to scream!


 Dessert is proof the Goddess loves us and want\'s us to be happy.

 Ok, it\'s also proof she get\'s an aunery chuckle watching our waistline\'s expand, but thaaaat\'s an entirely different gif!  :D

I believe this election is going to be very close all the way through.
I also believe, given the latest reports concerning "credible sources" claiming terrorists are targeting election week for a strike, that Junior will resort to anything , utilize any excuse, to insure he sit\'s another 4 years!  
How can a Nation be assured of it\'s National security and future, when it\'s leadership is criminal!?


Goddess Bless America and save us from the evil that is Junior and his minions.
I would actually spell out his name, however since it was reported by Metallica  in an interview last year, that their official fan site was shut down for a brief period of time soley because a members SN was, Ki**B_____ ,
 I thought better than to risk it.  (*This member was also detained by Federal authorities for questioning.)

I really don\'t feel like being arrested, detained for days and refused a speedy trial, right before the election that ousts the dictator that helped bring the laws that manifest that National fear, to life! I say dictator because Junior sought on three separate ocassions, to obtain the powers of autonomy through Congress. Blessedly , he failed in that effort. However there are other ways to assume the mantel as he proves time and time again.

There\'s an old joke that goes; If ignorance is bliss, why aren\'t more of the stupid people smiling.

I know one of that number that wear\'s a smirk and yet somewhere in Texas there\'s a village asking the question; when\'s the idiot moving back!?
I pray we answer them. Soon people, very very soon.

And yet, given his character, I doudt that will happen. Because an idiot in power is a very powerful idiot and that is something a free country can ill afford.
We can\'t afford our daughters and sons, mothers and fathers, dying in foreign lands while our administration reaps the benefit$.

And we certainly can\'t afford to bolster the climate of fear, paranoia , racism and intollerance, that currently holds power in this Nation and consumes the freedom\'s of her people.

you know - i was offered the chance to curate a politically themed art show here in SF, but was told that FBI had told them there were guidelines for political shows and you cannot have anything that implies killing or injuring him.  ok - i personally don\'t, but others i would have included do - and i have to say since when is he the only thing in the world that cannot be injured or killed in effigy or art?  

"sticks and stones may break my bones, but art, that can really hurt me" whined the Shrub, sheltered behind Cuntalizza\'s apron.

needless to say - i am not curating that show... when i balked at telling other artists what they may and may not submit (let alone being told what i may select) - suddenly a member of the group\'s board was curating the show.  i don\'t blame them - when the FBI takes an interest your gallery, it\'s bound to make you nervous.

Censorship in ART!  :-X

Makes me sick. I had thought that was a protected form of free speach under the first amendment. Oops! I forgot, it almost doesn\'t exist anymore.  :o

It is a horror, what is happening. Next they will go back to book burnings, starting I am sure with Kitty Kelly\'s new book on the Shrub family! If he steals anohter 4 years I will move out of the US and become an expatriot untill our rights are restored. OK, maybe that is xtreme. Even with the ills brougt on in the last 4 years, I suppose we still have it best. Scary thought!

Ocean - if we want to get REALLY messy we can throw chocolate sundays! But no nuts, they sting! ROFL

Beatnik  8)

Truly sad and yet, given this administration, not surprising.

Remember when freedom of speech was guaranteed by ancient parchment, art was honored as the subtle language of the creative spirit, and the paranoia of Macarthyism was a shameful relic of our past!?  :-[

I just saw your post Beatnik and had to edit! ;)
They sting?
Had alot of experience being pelted by nut covered Sundae\'s have ya!? *EvYl GrinZ*  Somewhere in the dark recesses of "Shhhh, don\'t tell", there\'s a Baskin Robbins that knows the truth! (http://www.imgmag.com/images/lyoness/EMOTICONS/shhh.gif)

Actually I also edited because you said this;

Beatnik Quote: Next they will go back to book burnings
[glb]"Where they have burned books, they will end in burning human beings." (German: ""Dort, wo man Bücher verbrennt, verbrennt man am Ende auch Menschen.")--Heinrich Heine, from his play Almansor (1821)[/glb]

Book burning is not something radical\'s need return to. It\'s , sadly and shamefully enough, alive and well in the 21st century! Please consider this link: http://www.ala.org/ala/oif/bannedbooksweek/bookburning/21stcentury/21stcentury.htm

And what you don\'t burn you can always ban!


Given the timelyness of this post, I had to share this link: http://www.ala.org/ala/oif/bannedbooksweek/bannedbooksweek.htm
Banned Books week! September 25th ~October 2nd.
And you will be amazed at the titles on the list!

I thought to share a personal experience related to the issue of book burning, that I encountered in Tampa Florida a few years ago.
I selected a list of books from the Tampa public library catalog, for my studies, and began to search for them on shelf. The subject of these books was Goddess history and Witchcraft.
I found only one of the books on my list, on shelf.
I approached the librarian to inquire as to when these books were due back, presuming they were checked out recently. (This was before the current online catalog at TPL).
The librarian checked her terminal and said that most of the books were noted as having been "lost".  I was shocked that so many titles in two different subject , would be lost by patrons who had checked them out.

I was ignorant of radicals burning book\'s in the 20th century until  that librarian gave me the education that broke my heart.

It seem\'s that the public library system of Florida is and had been for some years, well aware of a collective of radical Christians who united to exercise their agenda toward a single cause; to extricate the "Devil" from his influence in the public library systems.

Consequently they would apply for library cards, using their real ID, (believing the risk was inherent in those dedicated to "Gods" service). Then they would check out book\'s that were considered Satanic in nature.
They would horde these books for months and then once a year, (Christs~mass), they would get together in their respective area\'s of the State and burn them all! United in this collective effort that they imagined would vanquish the evil from their local communities.

I was outraged that not only did the Florida Public Library system know about these zealots and their destructive agenda toward public property, but that they never persued charges or imposed penalties! i.e. billing and in the extreme, summoning to court, for  the cost of the books these psycho\'s stole on the record of their library account! Not only that, but these creatures were permitted to continue to check out titles until someone, anyone, in the system realized the pattern on their library account and closed their access!

And the books they stole? Were they to ever be replaced? I asked that.  No! Why? Because unless the patron paid for the loss, the libraries budget , because of the vast number of books throughout the State system that are lost every year, could not afford to replace them at their own expense!

And then she shocked me even further.  she sighed as if in disgust and told me that these kind of creatures, with their sick collective\'s agenda, also worked at the Post Offices (around the Country) and exacted the same philosophy in their mail delivery!

 

As for the notion of becoming an expatriot in the face of the opression. Simply said, if we run, it wins! Not only does it enslave our freedom, but by running we show no respect for the freedom we claim to love because we don\'t stand and fight to keep it.

I\'ll die before I allow a dictatorship to take my Nation and enslave my people. Because if it kills me in the process of fighting for freedom, I still win, because then I am truly free .  I\'ll rest in peace knowing I passed beyond the veil while standing on my feet, rather than serving on my knees! It\'s not that I fight for America. It\'s that I fight for freedom, that is the right of any people of any Nation!



"My views are one that speaks to freedom."-- GWB Washington, D.C., Jan. 29, 2004
(Yes, and sadly enough it says: "Goodbye and welcome to a future of Authoritarianism!")

That is really apalling. That the library system does not prosecute them, I had them come after me on a book of colonial Lousiana history! (btw - I am a history fanatic)

You\'ll love this tid bit then...

In an article from the NY Times, I was reported tht at a rally in either Kansas or Oklahome (don\'t have it with me at the moment), shortly before the Repub National Convention, that people were only allowed into the rally after signing a pledge to support Shrubya!! :o :P :\'( :-X

The VERY first thing that popped into my head was
"Who does he think he is? Hitler and the Repubs are the SS?" That is what it sounded like to me. I was quite horrified. It comes off like you must be a card carring member of the elephants to be considered a citizen or patriotic.  >:(

And not to name names, Ocean, but it is Cold Stone Creamery that holds my secrets!!  ::)

Beatnik   8)

Cold Stone hmmm!? Now we know! ;) They just opened in this area, so I\'ll have to check out their Sundae\'s and pelt the attendant with the nut\'s in your honor!

*cough* After I\'m arrested for nutty assault, please forward Klondike bars to my cell. ;)

I was not aware of that GOP violation, until I read your reply. Then I did a google news search and didn\'t find anything related to that story. :(  can you post it or PM a link to me!? *lifts tray, holding one  large banana split* Please!? ;)

It\'s not all that surprising really.  Extremists are hard pressed to live in peace unless everyone see\'s the world the way they do!  :-X

Since I had to edit anyway and for your consideration: Polling Report.com (Link: http://www.pollingreport.com)
"An independent, nonpartisan resource
on trends in American public opinion."




*edit because the system initially edited the word "Klondike"!?* (It did not do this during the "preview")

We\'re kidding here, right!? :o
**Just checked after posting the edit. No we\'re not kidding!  :-/ Ice cream censorship! The shame, the shame!  :D

I have been following this post since the beginning and find it so fascinating that you all have this information that you have shared. Not saying of course that I doubted anyone would have this knowledg,e but to know that I have joined amongst such strong and independent thinkers such as yourselves is very exciting. I live a very happy and simple life and  try not to take anything for granted knowing that there is so much out there to experience in such a short amount of time. I mean I can\'t get through a day without doing a million things or else it seems worthless. But one thing that I have neglected myself is the ability to use my voice. Yeah ok so I am a singer but what I mean is ... well....I registered to vote today.
This has been something that has weighed on my mind for the last ..well.. 14 years as I became eligible to vote.
But this last four years my mind has carried a heavy weight on the subject indeed. Especially after I watched in utter disgust at the last presidential election, as it was stolen and found my jaw on the floor for days.
What has stopped me till the last minuet you ask, well I don't rightly know. Even as I received my drivers license renewal 5 months ago and it asked the question, "do you want to register to vote?"  would you know that I sat on that renewal pondering that specific question almost to the day that my license would have expired?. I still however sent it in with a no, without being able to give an explanation even to myself.
So why now? Well, its simple.. I figured out that watching this world falling apart...enough is enough.
I am a selfish human being sometimes, but to think that my abilities to do as I please and ask questions about things that make no sense could be taken away or limited is unacceptable to me. I will read the books I want to read and I will listen to the music I want to listen to and I will paint what I want to and write what I want, I will get in my truck and drive across MY country as freely as I wish to and talk to people from all walks of life and learn what I want to learn and encourage others to find their own likes and dislikes and I could go on forever here but to make sure these things, these precious things that make us who we are, are still available to me and my family, friends etc., that is something only I can do.
So there you have it, my name is SNGWTHME and I am selfish and I just registered to vote!

(http://www.imgmag.com/images/lyoness/EMOTICONS/Cuddle.gif)

Thank You SNGWTHME, for registering your voice to the solidarity of freedom! We are stronger now, by one! Re~(http://www.imgmag.com/images/lyoness/EMOTICONS/Cuddle.gif)

 :)

I\'ve been off-line for a week, so have had to catch up on this discussion. More like this going on all around the net, as the campaigns heat up.

Not being a US-American, I really don\'t feel eligible to enter directly into your political discussions -- those are for you to delve into and (I hope) resolve. Of course, that doesn\'t prevent me having an opinion on the subject. I will confess that, with the Republican domination and Dubya at its nominal head, our southern cousins make kind of uneasy neighbours at times. My preference would be to see Kerry & the Democrats win. Not that it would be all peaches & cream for Canadians, or anyone else outside the USA. But it would relieve some of the border paranoia we\'ve seen lately, and maybe ease some of the international tensions. The Republicans appear to us on the outside to be set only on increasing & aggravating all of that.

And dang it all -- you ARE our cousins, and our friends!

Good luck to you, and don\'t forget to vote!

 Dear GKG you\'re welcome, adorei ter escrito em portugues, beijos

 Best Wishes, excuse me the hastes,

 edjane maps :-* :-* :-*

thanks for the kisses - i lost most of my portuges in my fierce fight to speak english as well or better than the kids in my class when we came up here - i am american but lived in brasil until i was 6, my parents were missionaries - so when i can i try to use what little portuges i have...  

thank you for the best wishes - and for the support in our effort not to fall to the Shrub a second time.

i grew up in the brasil of the early 60s - doubtless too long ago for you to remember Edjane, but it was a hard time.  the US is starting to remind me of my childhood! :\'(

 :-* :-* :-*

Dear SNGWTME - I am very flattered by your praise - there is my selfishness. But more importnatly, thank you for registering to vote and joining in the debate!!

Darling Ocean - Don\'t blame me when you get arrested for "nutty assault"! Currently my Mother has the article - I will get the date and by line and see if I can find it in the NY Times  online and give you the link here, for additional articles as well that i have not yet mentioned.

Goddess gkg - I\'m sure your childhood holds many tales, both in growing up in Brazil in the 60\'s as well as your assimilation into the American culture. I\'m also sure that there were many children who were less than kind about your accent, and made it difficult for you to fit in. I myself, was the kid everyone picked on. Couldn\'t tell could you!  ::) Because of that experience, I believe that is why I have never "conformed" to what other people thought I should be. I am SO thankful I eventully gave up trying to fit in. Conforming with your personality is the same as conforming your thoughts. Otherwise I might have become a mindless line towing zombie. I have a much more interesting group of friends, from all persuations and walks of life.

I am enjoying this forum board so very much because of all of you wonderfully inteligent , humorous people.  :-*

Most of all, thank you Travis for getting this set up!! I am so glad I stumbled upon all of you!!  :-*

Beatnik  8)

Thank you all. I am very pleased that you have picked this place for your informed and intelligent discussion, not just this thread but this board as a whole seems to be populated by informed and either aware or eager to be aware users.

it is a wonderful atmosphere here.  i used to felt a little guilty throwing politics in before - but Travis, being the wonderful "host" that you are, you made it cool.

dear Beatnik, yes my life is full of intresting stories.  you\'re right about the kids being unkind but it\'s hardly their fault.  any blue eyed blonde girl coming into a school in South Bend, near Gary, Indiana, in the mid-late 60s who couldn\'t speak a word of English would have gotten the same "welcome."

 Dear Travis and GKG

 I Love this forum and you\'re welcome friends!

 A nice great week for all!

edjane maps
 :-* :-* :-*

  I think it\'s wonderful to have an open , friendly atmosphere in which to share about the legal platform that sustains our day to day.

 Thank You Travis and all the member\'s of this forum. With the contribution of such wonderful open minds and intelligence, you make politics fun! How refreshing.

(http://www.imgmag.com/images/lyoness/EMOTICONS/Ring_Dance_Smilies.gif)


FYI: For your consideration, the first Presidential Candidates Debate will take place this Thursday, September 30th @ 9p.m. Eastern Time at the University of Miami, Coral Gables Florida.

CSPAN ~ Link: http://www.c-span.org/  (See: "This Week" Column @ the right of their homepage)
CSPAN has, imho, the best non~commercial coverage for this event.

Please consider this link for the Commission on Presidential Debates full schedule: [/b]http://www.debates.org/pages/news_031106.html


Bush has already made demands to curtail the current schedule from 3 Presidential debates , to 2. And the Washington Post reports that in Wednesday\'s edition, (10/1) , they will publish other of his demands to further alter the  format.  (Source Link: http://www.atsnn.com/story/78623.html )

The Candidates are rehearsing everything about this event thus far, and it is my prediction that Bush will expect all the questions so that his camp can research and thus provide him all possible answers, including assistance via/ audio cues.
 Imho, he\'s not the brightest bulb in D.C. , as he\'s proven time and again, and this debate is critical.

Source, NPR Audio report link:  http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4049255

Ocean,

Thank you for all the links regarding the debates. I am not suprised about the audio cues for Shrubya, it seems he can\'t answer questons with out script, and sometimes he can\'t even with one!

I must apologize, the articles for the NY Times I spoke of, have been sent on to my Aunt who lives in Greece. My mother - who had them - thought we were done with them. So I don\'t have dates and by lines to reference, to search by. We now have a new batch of them, and I promise to get those links up, so that you may all read them. Again my sincere apologies.  :-/

I am looking forward to the debates, as I believe that they will boost the Kerry/Edwards ticket into November.

Beatnik  8)

there\'s no surprise in Dubya\'s game playing - his campaign said (and quite rightly) that it\'s Kerry\'s side that stands to gain from the debates.  even his own people know that Dubya is a liability if he gets pushed to answer direct questions without someone to spoon feed an intelligible response.

there is a whole slew of good stuff to read - if you don\'t have time to research everything for yourself, i recommend signing on to some good email newsletters, like: //www.AlterNet.org, //www.Mortie.net and the one man operation of //www.InformationClearingHouse.info - Tom Feeley does a good job with that.  check into your area peace alliances too - they are excellent sources of emails with hot-topic articles about the war, the W and peace efforts.  in SoCal the best ones i know of are //www.TopangaPeaceAlliance.org and //www.PalisadiansforPeace.org (Dwight Stone\'s great project).

yeah, i know, i\'m in NorCal... but my peace pals are down south.  we\'ve been working on a move south for a year now - things just keep getting in the way.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v223/GoddessPrayer/hug.gif) No worries Beatnik. I appreciate your search for the article, in any case.

As promised, though this is an article link to : "The New Yorker", the update on the "rules of engagement" for tomorrows Presidential Debate.
http://www.newyorker.com/shouts/content/?041004sh_shouts

And for the occasion, (like we\'re surprised someone came up with this one!  ;) ), the "Democratic Debate Drinking Game" *Link http://www.strangecosmos.com/content/item/24948.html

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v223/GoddessPrayer/snoopy.gif) That certainly will put it all in a better light.  Why whine about George W. when there\'s wine on the table!?
 :D  
Yeah, I know, stomped grapes can only do so much ! ::)

that depends on the grapes involved.   ;D

thanks for all the goodies, Ocean.  although, i\'m not big in the drinking games.  i take my drinking seriously.   ;)

whether you take your debates straight-up or over ice, keep your fingers crossed that light bulbs go off for people around the country about the scary place we\'re in.   :\'(

hey y\'all - the "PATRIOT ACT" takes a hit!  
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=564&u=/nm/20040929/ts_nm/rights_patriot_dc&printer=1

*Happy Bounce*

TY GkG for that wonderful news link! It\'s a start, and perhaps it\'s a sign of the times!? Like that old  song lyric, "The times they are a changin\' "

Ever the optimist, I like to think this is the first step in the right direction to freedom from the illegal, unconstitutional U.S. Patriot act, in total.

One way to insure that promise of a future san\'s Federalism , is to let our voices be heard in November.

I once saw a bumpersticker that read:

 [glb]" Re~Elect NO ONE!"[/glb]  

What I wouldn\'t give for that to actually manifest.  Yes, we the people are sick and tired of the alleged "two party system" and have chosen not to elect any one of two evils, lesser or no! (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v223/GoddessPrayer/EMOTICONS/SMILIE_SIGNS/BYE.png)

Ok, besides being an optimist, I\'m also a dreamer! ;)

Ocean, you\'re a lovely brilliant soul, but you\'re right, you\'re also a dreamer.

you know, i\'ve heard that sentiment a few times now, "the lesser of two evils is still evil."

i think perhaps that simply becomes a cop out.  your duty in voting is to do what is truly best for the country - and if you truly think that the current administration is heinous and evil, then it is your duty to remove them from power.  to winge about two evils is to waffle and leave the remaining citizenry to try to pull your weight.  voters are already saddled with pulling the weight for those who don\'t vote, and now they are charged with the responsibility to pull the weight of those who choose to waste their vote on someone who A-has not a chance in hell to win, and B-is running on pure ego with backing and financial support on the side from the very party eveyone voting for him claims is the worst to rule the nation in eons.  the smartest thing the GOP and other Bush-o-philes have done is give financial and court support to Nader\'s efforts to get on ballots.  [glb]the man was at the GOP convention drumming up deals and glad handing, folks - does that not mean anything to anyone?[/glb]

the two party system may suck, and i too believe that it does in many ways, but it is right now the only way to remove that evil little toad from office.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040929/ap_on_el_pr/uninformed_americans

interesting little indictment of the way campaigns are promoted and media focus is distorted - but to me it\'s also an indictment of the citizenry that more don\'t make the effort to learn about the candidates.

just one more reason the level of political participation among people in this forum, although dedicated to music the majority of the time, is so remarkable.

here\'s some info as you prepare to watch the debates tomorrow;

Commentary

Connie Rice: Top 10 Secrets They Don\'t Want You to Know About the Debates

The Tavis Smiley Show audio / The Tavis Smiley Show, September 29, 2004 • After weeks of political wrangling, Sen. John Kerry and President Bush will square off for the first of three key presidential debates. Both camps have agreed to an elaborate, 32-page contract that spells out everything from the size of the dressing rooms to permitted camera angles.

But the controversy over the debates threatens to overshadow the events themselves. Some citizen groups complain that the Commission on Presidential Debates (CPD) isn\'t as non-partisan as it should be, and that Kerry and Bush won\'t be pressed on urban issues. Commentator Connie Rice says that\'s just the tip of the iceberg, and she\'s got another Top 10 list -- this time: Top 10 Secrets They Don\'t Want You to Know About the Debates.

(10.) They aren\'t debates!

"A debate is a head-to-head, spontaneous, structured argument over the merits of an issue," Rice says. "Under the ridiculous 32-page contract that reads like the rules for the Miss America Pageant, there will be no candidate-to-candidate questions, no rebuttal to your opponent\'s points, no cross questions or cross answers, no rebuttals, no follow-up questions -- that\'s not a debate, that\'s a news conference."

(9.) The debates were hijacked from the truly independent League of Women Voters in 1986.

"The League of Women Voters ran these debates with an iron hand as open, transparent, non-partisan events from 1976 to 1984," Rice says. "The men running the major campaigns ended their control when the League defiantly included John Anderson and Ross Perot, and used tough moderators and formats the parties didn\'t like. The parties snatched the debates from the League and formed the Commission on Presidential Debates -- the CPD -- in 1986."

(8.) The "independent and non-partisan" Commission on Presidential Debates is neither independent nor non-partisan.

"CPD should stand for \'Cloaking-device for Party Deceptions\' -- it is not an independent commission on anything. The CPD is under the total control of the Republican and Democratic parties and by definition bipartisan, not non-partisan. Walter Cronkite called CPD-sponsored debates an \'unconscionable fraud.\'"

(7.) The secretly negotiated debate contract bars Kerry and Bush from any and all other debates for the entire campaign.

"Under what I call the Debate Suppression and Monopolization Clause of the contract, it is illegal for the candidates to debate each other anywhere else during the campaign," Rice says. "We need a new criminal law for reckless endangerment of democracy."

(6.) The debate contract effectively excludes all other serious presidential candidates from participating in the debates.

"This is what I call the Obstruction of Democratic Debate Rule, which sets an impossibly high threshold for third-party candidates... Where are we, Russia? Isn\'t Vladimir Putin wiping out democracy in Russia by excluding all opposing candidates from the airwaves during his re-election campaigns? Most new ideas come from third parties -- they should be in the debates."

(5.) All members of the studio audience must be certified as "soft" supporters of Bush and Kerry, under selection procedures they approve.

"It\'s not enough to rig the debate -- they have to rig the audience, too? The contract reads: \'The debate will take place before a live audience of between 100 and 150 persons who... describe themselves as likely voters who are soft Bush supporters or soft Kerry supporters.\' We should crash this charade and jump up in the middle to declare ourselves hard opponents of this Kabuki dance."

(4.) These "soft" audience members must "observe in silence."

"Soft and silent... In what I\'m calling the Silence of the Lambs Clause of this absurd contract, the audience may not move, speak, gesture, cough or otherwise show that they are alive and thinking."

(3.) The "extended discussion" portion of the debate cannot exceed 30 seconds.

"Other than the stupidity of the debate contract, what topic do you know that can be extendedly discussed in 30 seconds?"

(2.) Important issues are locked out by the CPD debate rules and party control.

"Really important but sticky or tough issues get axed, because the parties control the questions and topics," Rice says. "For example, in 2000, Gore and Bush mentioned the following issues zero times: Child poverty, the drug war, homelessness, working-class families, NAFTA, prisons, corporate crime and corporate welfare."

(1.) Fortune 100 corporations are the main funders of the CPD-sponsored debates, and the CPD\'s co-chairs are corporate lobbyists.

The CPD is run by Frank Fahrenkopf, a pharmaceutical industry lobbyist, and Paul Kirk, a top gambling lobbyist," Rice says. "And the biggest muliti-national corporations write the checks that fund the CPD -- Phillip Morris, Anheuser-Busch and dozens more. The audience may have to be silent and motionless, but the corporate sponsors can have banners, beer tents, Budweiser girls handing out pamphlets protesting beer taxes -- a corporate-sponsored circus to go along with the Kabuki Debates. Could we get a more fitting description of our democracy?"

You\'ll love the following link!!!

 ;D Crawford Texas News paper Endorses Kerry!

http://abcnews.go.com/wire/Politics/ap20040928_873.html

Can\'t wait for tonight!!

Beatnik  8)

that\'s just too good!

 ;D ;D ;D ;D

Can you imagine the steam rising from the private quarters of the White House today, after Junior reads that!?  ;)

Thank you for posting the Debate secrets. I knew the CPD was corrupt when they boldly announced to the American voter public that they refused to permit Ross P. to participate in the 2000 campaign debate, "because he didn\'t have a chance of winning the election!"
Nothing like exampling the concept of , "select Democracy" in action! (http://www.imgmag.com/images/lyoness/EMOTICONS/UFO_Duck.gif)

Per Nader and gkg\'s comment: RE: "(sic)...the smartest thing the GOP and other Bush-o-philes have done is give financial and court support to Nader\'s efforts to get on ballots. "

While I\'ve heard about the financial backing that supports Nader being suspect, I would respectfully ask you to consider that it is the court system that is currently utilized to get Nader\'s name off many State\'s Ballot\'s. (For your consideration: Google News search results ~ (Pick your link ;) ) http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&ned=us&q=Nader+court

Re. the statement: "(sic)..."the lesser of two evils is still evil."  
i think perhaps that simply becomes a cop out.  your duty in voting is to do what is truly best for the country - and if you truly think that the current administration is heinous and evil, then it is your duty to remove them from power. "

With all respect, I disagree that it\'s a cop out. It\'s a personal opinion, due to careful research of the candidates.
 Yes, I do believe the current Administration is heinous and evil.  I believe another 4 years of GW , puts America at risk of his corrupt Federalist vision, for America.
And John Kerry, I believe quite simply doesn\'t have the backbone, the character or the foresight, to lead a country.  I also don\'t believe he sincerely believes he shall, either. But that\'s an entirely different thread. ;)

It\'s not a cop out and it\'s not letting someone else pull my weight. It is responsibility for my future, my people and my country, to effectively protest the candidacy of two evils by not voting for either one. (Imagine the implementation of the earlier slogan;

"Re~elect No One!"

For that to germinate from dream unto reality, it has to start somewhere. And I can not allow my conscience or consciousness elect GW or Kerry, as the leader of my future knowing they are equally bankrupt of character.)

As for the contention that a vote for Nader, or any other independent party candidate, write in vote, etc... is a vote for Bush; that is a sophomoric judgement and contrary to the mechanism inherent in the electoral college and that of the popular vote.

Link: http://www.historyhouse.com/in_history/electoral_college/

In any event it will be interesting to watch the debates tonight, even though it has been relegated to entertainment rather than a bonafide political discourse.

i don\'t see it as sophmoric to examine the past election against the upcoming one and see the direct correlation between the impact of a third party on the previous election and the support of the GOP for maintaining the third party active in this election.

as for the courts, in several instances the GOP has either been the financial backer or outright proponent in the courts to add Nader to the ballot.  yes, the courts are being used also to block him from ballots; the cases that i am familiar with where this is happening are due to the fact that the signatures on petitions have been found to be suspect, or election rules and guidelines have been sidestepped to put him in the ballot.

i have no huge love for Kerry at all - though i do fail to see him as evil i certainly don\'t think he\'s a fantastic candidate.  Nader is much more suspect and is in fact showing extremely poor judgement in running at a time when it is in the country\'s best interest to unseat the incumbant.  

as for re-electing no one - that is actually sophmoric to me.  there are many good people who do a good job in office and deserve to be re-elected.  hell, i would have signed up for a third term for Clinton had it been possible.  broad maxims like "re-elect no one" do more damage than good.

i don\'t see all GOP candidates as evil any more than i see all Green or Independent ones as good.  i do see a paramount issue that supercedes distaste and preference when our country is actually in grave danger.

at the time that Ross Perot was running, a third party candidate in the mix was a good thing and made people work harder to gain office.  in this instance it has been used as a tool - in fact the candidate himself has set himself up to be used as a tool - for an administration that is doing every thing in its power and a few things beyond that to get re-elected.  that i cannot abide, however poor a choice i feel Kerry may be.

Nader is willingly acting as a shill for the very establishment power mongers he originally opposed decades ago.  that is far more evil than anything i have read about Kerry.

the debates will be very interesting, but largely a dog and pony show; as the top 10 outlines, it can be nothing else.  Americans need to step forward and take back the debates and the political process, rather than sitting back and being fed BS daily.  that means holding everyone accountable.

i firmly believe that those who do not vote for Kerry and allow Bush\'s competition to be split in half are doing nothing but guaranteeing Bush\'s re-election.  the oldest and most successful offense is to divide and conquer - and they\'ve done it, by jove i do fear they have done it.

Ocean - Such hopeless cynicysm can only doom us to the negative. If one only sees the negative, then only negative will come. I believe that i am a realist. I try to balance preparation for bad, with hope for good. Have I been disappointed? Sure, but I have been pleasantly surprised as well. If everyone got so disgusted and did not vote, then the small minded minority is sure to win.

gkg - I agree that the Green Party has become a republican funded puppet. It\'s a shame and a sham. Very sad to see such an idealistic group of people used openly by their ideological advasaries. You would think they\'d be quick enough to catch on. It is too much to hope that Repubs are so disgusted by Bush that they would support Nader  rather than for Kerry so they can lie and say they voted, but not for the opposition.

After just watching the dog and pony debates, cause let\'s face it it IS all we have. I was overcome with joyful feelings of hope as I watched Kerry wipe the floor with Shrubya, without so much of a hair out of place. Regardless of how rigged it is, I do think that Kerry was extremely well spoken, he used EVERY SECOND of his time to state his platform. I found his statement of securing all the nuclear grade materials in 4 years, as daring as Kennedy saying we\'d put a man on the moon in however many years. (sorry folks it was before me, so I have only seen clips.) Bold move, which I am sure was meant  conjour images of JFK, Camalot, and better days.  Now, it is truely evident that Kerry is now working with the former Clinton people. And it worked before. Now lets face it, (all Zipper Gate and White Water aside, the Clinton years were pretty good in hind sight. Smart move. I beleive that Shrubya will definitely reduce the debates to 2 total, he looked so BAD! He stammered and stuttered, had long pauses, lots of "ummms" and "ahhhs"  and I was so distrated during his closing commets by all that blinking!! It was bordering on OCD!! Shrubya kept trying to talk in circles (mostly because his mind is stuck in a never ending idiot loop) and Kerry kept calling him out. Even if there is only one more debate Kerry has won the election.  ;D

Especially because all the of the havoc in Florida has so screwed them logistically for the election, that Jeb won\'t be able to help out this time. Hey, that puts me to mind, does anyone know what Neil Bush is up to? You know the OTHER brother. The one that was on the BoD\'s of the first 5 banks to fail in the S & L failures, you know the one that George Sr. pardoned while he was Pres. ::)

The Bush\'s are such an upstanding white collar criminal  family!!  :o  

[glb]Beatnik[/glb] 8)

Beatnik, i too thought Kerry did an excellent job.  i feel better about him now than i did going into the "debate" - my fav part of which was when Dubya interrupted and then apologized and Kerry offered to get rid of the "guidelines" and have a real debate.  Dubya wisely ignored that offer or he\'d have been shredded wheat by the end of the night.  your phrase "idiot loop" is dead on accurate.  

several times while watching and playing certain things back (we taped it) i said, "i hope Ocean and other reluctant to vote for Kerry saw this" - i really think it was a good representation of what is good about Kerry.  the whole thing about nuclear disarmament and Korea is SO strong and people have been letting that fade into the background.  i don\'t understand why.

all in all - i think it was a strong sign of hope for us that people are talking about it on the trains and in the coffee shops this morning.

I agree, it\'s got the conversations of the country returning to THE ISSUES. What are the real causes of the problem? Don\'t treat the symptoms of the problem, treat the cause of the problem! Kerry clearly explained how he would deal with the actual causes. While Shrubya just had a blank look on his face. It is easy to see that Bush will just never listen to the country about how WE think foreign policy should be handled. I believe that Kerry will listen to the country, even if he makes a different decision, he will take everything into consideration.  :D

I love how Kery said [glb]"BACK DOOR DRAFT"[/glb] too too true.  :o
And [glb]"COLLOSAL ERROR IN JUDGEMENT"[/glb] I was hopping up and down on my sofa!! :o

Beatnik  8)

the note that rang deep within me was when he hit on the matter of returning to the practice of earning international respect and that with integrity back in the White House we stand a better chance of getting an actual international coalition to help us dig ourselves and just as importantly Iraq out of this deep and dangerous pit of quicksand.

if anyone wants to know Kerry\'s plans, they are outlined in a general format on his website:

http://www.johnkerry.com/issues/

Bush obviously got stung by Kerry - he has just come out saying that Kerry would let foreign governments tell us when we can use our military, which is a complete misrepresentation of what was said.  arrggg... ok - before i take up too much space, or alienate anyone, i\'m gonna let that go.

Oh Travis Darlin, you really should consider adding a chat room to your wonderful site. Just a thought. (http://www.imgmag.com/images/lyoness/EMOTICONS/confused.gif)

I drafted a post for this thread this morning, and then the dread Microsoft error report window blinked on and "poof", the issue was closed. I took that as a sign from the powers to take a breath and step away. ;)
(*First time that irritating critter has ever popped up anywhere but on another network I utilize. I took it as a serious sign.  Probably shaped like an oval and embossed with; "Ahhh hush up!"   :-X

Let\'s see if M.soft kicks an edit this time.

I watched the debates on CSPAN , and was amazed that the networks violated one of the rules. They actually showed the opponent , as the other was speaking! Bravo revolution! ;)
It was obvious that Junior expected this though, because all his emotional ticks were so contained that he appeared as playdough with a tic. Rubbing his nose, posing that irritating smirk, looking to his left at who ever, as if seeking an ally during his ass kicking, etc....

Kerry, meanwhile, was clearly amused through the whole thing. He\'s a master~debater.  Given enough wine and white chocolate , on some of the coffee tables around here, that phrase could be edited to truly AmuZe! *cough*

I was impressed.

I was impressed that Junior stood his ground. Goddess Bless the moron that believes "Idiot" is monotheistic and claims acclaim as devout!

I was very impressed that Kerry addressed issues that GW probably prayed would never be brought out. And yet, with all respect to Kerry supporters, there is one little thing that caught my attention.
It\'s not a good thing to site facts and figures to support your platform , when said facts and figures are in error.
Per the GAO.  Kerry was in error when he said we spent over 2 Billion thus far , on the "war" in Iraq.

In point of fact we have spent little over 1.2 Billion.

"The flip~flop" charge per Kerry\'s record vs. his campaign rhetoric is valid. No, not per Juniors assertion in this debate, but per this debate and research of his record.  

For your consideration: Project Vote Smart Kerry Voting Record Link:http://www.vote-smart.org/voting_category.php?can_id=S0421103

I concur , not with Junior, Goddess forbid, but with the issue of respect, that it dishonors those who fight and die today, to say this "war" is ; Kerry Quote> "the wrong war in the wrong place at the wrong time"
Source Link: http://www.truthout.org/docs_04/090804Z.shtml

What does that say to the grieving families of those who served, died, and bled in the sand, to insure democracy is born to a people who may or may not want it!?
Do you truly want U.S. there, when you decapitate us, and our ally nation members, in protest!?
And has America ever exampled herself , via the two party system and those in power at the time, as altruistic!?

Consider Halliburton\'s investment in this "cause". Consider America building Air force Bases in Iraq today; over 10 in number (that is , more than 10). Does that send the message , that Junior initally claimed, that we\'re not there to take over their country, just to free their people?! (Paraphrasing).

And yes, I realize those few examples are citing the Anti~ Christ(Bush) points of contention, in this 1st debate and election. However, it is also to address the Kerry platform as well. Hence the inclusion of the "Project Vote Smart" link.

Read and learn. Dare to think beyond the hype.
Is it wise, is it free thinking and a free democracy, that our two party system candidates are likened unto celebrity and all that entails!?

In celebrity, Image is everything.

A bad movie can be canned, or relegated to the "Straight to video" shelf. However a bad movie in politics is guaranteed by the popular vote to run at least 4 years!

It\'s our responsibility not to let our honor and our future, to be relegated unto a B movie.

Kerry waffles! True enough and it\'s proven despite his contrary publicist machine that hopes to compel us to believe otherwise.
Remember during the debate, he kept talking about how much money the B. admin. spent on the war in Iraq?
There is a valid news clip where Kerry is asked how much we should spend to "Win" the "war" in Iraq, and he says (paraphrasing again I realize) , as much as it takes to win!

Point being; Bush is clearly myopic. "I am President, what I say goe$"
And Kerry has not, and did not , even in the debate, though he did address issues the Moderator did not, waffles! It\'s not campaign slam, it\'s his Senate Record speaking for himself.

I think of Kerry and I hear this line , repeating like a bad audio reel: "What ever it takes to win".

Before you vote, let me ask you this. Would you let Kerry invest your savings ?!
Would you trust him to tell you where the money was and what it was "up" to?

What does it say about a politicans record , when they campaign to lead you as President and yet, in a Nation of Laws, as a law maker, they did not vote on many of the bills that affected your future!?
If this is a nation of laws, do you trust to lead a law maker that abstains or does not vote , on your day to day as Senator, when they aspire to Commander In Chief!?
When I\'m wrong, I\'ll admit it. No problem. Because when someone proves I\'m wrong, I learn. I love that!

I respect some have titled me a cynic.
I consider myself an eternal optimist.

And I have learned that anyone who excuses their behavior when the future of others is on the line, is not anyone I would trust my life to!
You can excuse all you want. When I\'m dead, or in the shakles of a Federalist authority, etc.... that excuse means I should have had keener vision. Not that I should have realized a two party system is the only option in risking my chance of chains!

Goddess Bless America and save us from ourselves.

[size=10]*double word edit*[/size]

I just typed a huge responce to you Ocean, but unfortunatly the board gave em an error message that it was too long and to shorten it, and when tohe post box came back my entire post was gone.

Here was my gist:

Kerry\'s coments about the war were not meant to put down the troops, as Shrub would have you believe. His comments were to illustrate that Iraq had NOTHING to do with 9/11. That the troops should be in Afganistan, tracking down Osma. After all it can\'t be too difficult to find a 60 year old man dragging a Kidney Dialysis machine throught the mountians. The troops areint he wrong country. We NEVER should have gone into Iraq.
I support the troops, but abhor the war. They are following orders and dying because there was never a full plan. Yes I think their lives are being wasted by Shrubya the war monger!!

Read former Secretary of the Treasury O\'Neils book. Bush wanted to go to war from the first week of his presidency. A full 9 months prior to 9/11.

Shrubya won\'t pay them decently, has yet to extend medical benefits to the reservists, who come back wounded and maimed. But we don\'t hear about those numbers do we??

Yes, I think Kerry would do better, because when he orders troops to go fight he knows first hand what it is like. Shrubya was too busy drinking and doing drugs, being sheltered by his rich family, and was too self centered to serve his country.

And now Shrub sends off the poor and middle class to go die for bull @#it reasons! Look at who comprises the military. The only rich people are the ones that got to the Academcy, and come out Officers. It\'s still the rich deciding who is going to die.

Beatnik   8)

I heard about this and had to find it myself. It appears that Laura Bush is not so innocent either:

www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/e1698.htm

Interesting.

Beatnik  8)

Goddess Rest the soul.  :\'(

I think it shows how low the media will go , exampling partisan bias, to help win this election.

I loath GW. However, I would ask, what of our past, even at 17, would we cringe to have revealed publicly!?

*runs and hides*

I don`t even pretend to know anything about politics in the USA, I can just go by what I`ve read and seen on UK television, But I do know I don`t like or trust George Bush and his treatment of people who speak uo for what they believe in.
I had always voted for the Labour party in the elections, but since Tony Blair decided to team up with Bush for the war in Irac I will not support them again until Blair goes, he doesn`t care what we the people want, he just wants to get Brownie points from Bush.
It`s time to bring home all the troups from the Gulf, back to their loved ones, It`s too late for some will never see their families again, every life wasted could have been avoided, They aren`t your children, Mr Prime Minister, and President Bush, you can`t know how their family feel, I have some idea, having lost my own son 5 years ago, he was 23.

When you decide to send troops to War, go with them, and be in the front line, we`ll see how brave you are: This to all the pro-war, Bush--Blair supporters everywhere.
Peace-Love-Consideration.
Patti x

when you look at the votes that Kerry has cast please bear in mind some facts before drawing your conclusions.  bills put before the Senate for consideration are often named for only one item of several that have been attached.  many times people vote down a seemingly reasonable bill because extremely unreasonable things have been attached to it.  it is a common ploy used by all politicians when they want to force a vote on unsavory items to attach them to bills that people will be soundly criticized for shooting down.

Kerry made it clear and has always stated, that when additional information is available, he is willing to change his mind rather than to stay the course when it becomes so obviously the wrong course.  i applaud people who can admit they made a wrong decision and move to do their best to correct it.

if people call these decisions flip-flops, i say bullshit.  that\'s thinking on your feet and making decisions as needed rather than per what will be popular.

secondly, please take a good look at the reality we face - it will be a very long time before this country truly embraces anything but a two party system.   a crisis time in our country is not the time to work on expanding that, laudible though the concept may be.

as for the remarks about dishonor to those fighting and risking/losing their lives - what Kerry said that rings the most true on the subject is that we need to stop ourselves from confusing the war with the warriors.  he said that they are performing the most noble duty one can and i don\'t think anyone would argue with him on that count.

people simply must stop trying to tie the two together.  what dishonors people doing everything honorable they can in the name of America, isn\'t just to allow horror show antics to go on in prisons.  the worst dishonor is to send them to die for oil.  for greed.  for power.  for bravado.  that is a devistating dishonor - and to refrain from saying so just because you have tied the warrior to the war is wrong and a total injustice to the people laying down their lives.  this IS the wrong war.

(http://www.imgmag.com/images/lyoness/EMOTICONS/tv.gif)Just a reminder;

[glb]The VP Candidates  Debate will be broadcast tonight. [/glb]It\'s style vs. substance in Edwards-Cheney VP debate ~ The Article Link:  http://news.bostonherald.com/election/view.bg?articleid=47477

Case Western Reserve University ~ VP Debate official site link:  http://www.case.edu/vpdebate/

So, what munchies are we serving for this ocassion!?[/color]  (http://www.imgmag.com/images/lyoness/EMOTICONS/Popcorn.gif)

lessee... we\'re doing home-made burgers with onions and peppers, and of COURSE - dark chocolate and red wine!

as usual, we will be getting this on tape.  i am hoping to get some real winners from Cheney who seems to have a hot streak...  Edwards does too, but Cheney seems like he\'ll be a lot of fun to watch (and pick on).

by the way, how does one "misunderstand" Rumsfeld\'s statement on Iraq and Al Qaeda?  "To my knowledge, I have not seen any strong, hard evidence that links the two." seems pretty cut and dry, and yet now he\'s saying he was "misunderstood."

Quote: [glb]"(sic)...seems pretty cut and dry, and yet now he\'s saying he was "misunderstood." [/glb]

  Reminds me of the old standby for getting out of legal testimony (and as a CYA)

"I don\'t recall!"   ::)

(http://www.imgmag.com/images/lyoness/SMILIE_SIGNS/Crazy_Ride2.JPG)


 Mmmmm, Mmmm, reads like a very tasty menu gkg. (http://pages.prodigy.net/bestsmileys1/emoticons1/eat.gif)  Yeah, I\'m the sudtle one! (http://pages.prodigy.net/rogerlori1/emoticons/lol8.gif)

hey, you\'re welcome to head on over to Concord CA and join us!

of course you can!  you, Ocean, Travis & his lovely family, heck, the whole TDRS gaggle can join us - even those in foreign lands can raise a glass with us to fervent maintenance of the political process!

I\'m with ya all too...well in spirit anyway!  ;D

Well, for those that watched the VPD, what did you think!?

Since we talked about munchies for the ocassion, I\'ll use a metaphore; Contrary to the "Lays" ad line, at least there\'s only one!

I felt like I was watching a rehash of the Presidential Candidate Debate, with different players that weren\'t quite energetic enough to be there.

I will say, "Bravo!" , to Edwards for addressing the Constitutional marriage Amendment issue proposed by the Bush Admin. and reminding the voter public that Cheney\'s daughter is gay. Which is to say, her Father and his cohort, support the passage of an Amendment barring her equal rights, as well as that of every other Gay American.

Bad Seperatist, bad,bad! (http://www.imgmag.com/images/lyoness/EMOTICONS/haudrauf.gif) His (and the initiator of this bigotry, GWB\'s), platform on that issue is tantamount to saying to the American public;

"Hello, we\'re the leader\'s of the United States and we believe in a Free America.  Just as long as certain American\'s don\'t expect to live and love freely! Are you impressed enough to give us 4 more years to run your future?

(http://www.imgmag.com/images/lyoness/SMILIE_SIGNS/QueerAngelWings.jpg)

Other than that, I listened and worked on my craft\'s and writing, while they "played" in the background.

However, that "Cadbury Fruit and Nut " bar and ice  water , was an excellent accompanyment I must say.   :D

dinner was tasty, and the debate was better than i had expected.

in fact, the one place where i found Cheney to have class at all was in the issue of the Anti-Gay Marriage Amendment.  he is not in favor of it, did not pretend to be and simply said he works for the president and the president makes the administration policy so he supports his effort to do it.  he didn\'t not even take his opportunity to rebutt anything Edwards said about it other than to thank Edwards for the kind words about the Cheney family and their support of Mary.

the debate had actually more fire than i anticipated.  Edwards wasn\'t a cracker-jack trial lawyer for nuthin\'.  Cheney did turtle quite a bit, but Edwards got him out to snap at things and those snaps showed a great deal of the lack of substance in the GOP platform.

when Cheney had no real answer to what Edwards was saying about our being 90% of coalition casualties Cheney pulled one of the oldest tricks in the debate book - "mishearing" what was said and trying to pound on Edwards for not caring about Iraqi casualties and contributions.  it\'s right up there with "when did you stop beating your wife, Mr. Smith?" as a tactic to draw people into thinking something that couldn\'t be farther from the truth.  i think Edwards did a very good job about 95% of the time of fending off Cheney\'s spin on things, including that one.

all in all, Cheney was the strong old man trying to slap down a young upstart.  Edwards said it all when he said "a long resume doesn\'t equal good judgement."

proving again that being tough doesn\'t make you right or smart - here are a few interesting tid-bits on Cheney\'s performance last night.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20041006/pl_nm/campaign_cheney_blunder_dc&cid=615&ncid=2043

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=2026&ncid=2026&e=2&u=/latimests/cheneyandedwardshavemetbefore

a slip of the lip can sink a ship?  i can hardly wait for Duefler\'s report to come out so i can read in detail what other errors in judgement can be brought to light... so far it\'s looking like the report will damn them, not support them.  here\'s hoping the corporate cowboys may soon be unemployed... not that they\'ll feel it.

(http://www.imgmag.com/images/lyoness/SMILIE_SIGNS/TRUTH.png) A slip of the tongue, a slip of the mind, and the truth shall set us free! (I told you I was an optimist! ;)  )


(http://www.imgmag.com/images/lyoness/Cartoons/bush-cheney_Cuddle.JPG)


Ok, I\'m obviously Republican too!

Yeah!
Right! (http://www.imgmag.com/images/lyoness/EMOTICONS/nahnah.gif)

i hope, sweet lady, i truly hope - and so i vote... and if we all vote for the same opponent, we will remove them from office.

if those votes are split, you don\'t get to add them together and say more people want them out than in; you\'re stuck with them getting the highest number of votes and they stay, even if the majority do want them out.  just like the majority didn\'t want them in the first place...

I would have been joining more in this convo, but I have been working wicked hours this last week. But now that is done, and I can spend a bit more time with "yall".

Between the Presidential and Vice Presidental debates so far, it seems to me, that all I hear from Bush/Cheney is "Fear, fear, fear!" Like we are in the age of paranoia! They don\'t really speak about this issues, they try to talk around the issues, and seem to always come back to 9/11.

9/11 was a tragedy, I lived in NY, I have family and friends there. I was affected personally and professionally by it. However I do not live my life in fear that I will be, or could be in the wrong place at the right time. If we as a nation behave that way, then the terrorists have certainly won.

Look at Isreal. They still use the busses and they still go to restaurants and markets. They deal with more on a daily basis then we do, but you don\'t hear them preaching fear. Not that I am saying that i agree with some of their methods, but neither do I agree with the Palestinian\'s methods. Actually I think that both sides in that conflict have lost any of the valid arguements to support their side because of their behavior.  

My point is, really, the only real stand Bush/Cheney have taken is "Be afraid - be very afraid."

And I am only if they get re-elected!!  :o

Beatnik  8)

all the gaffes Cheney committed are being played out, but no one seems to have pointed out what i think is a VERY interesting quote from the first Bush War...

"...And while everybody was tremendously impressed with the low cost of the conflict, for the 146 Americans who were killed in action and for their families, it wasn\'t a cheap war. And the question in my mind is how many
additional American casualties is Saddam worth? And the answer is not very damned many."  [Secretary of Defense Dick Cheney, remarks to the Discovery
Institute, 8/14/1992]

once he got into the private sector and went to run Halliburton his stance changed... maybe he just got light headed?  could it be from the roar of the stock price, the smell of the cash?

Nader on his run for the White House....

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20041007/ap_on_el_pr/nader&cid=694&ncid=2043

please, please, please - folks, please heed the call of Gloria Steinem - not just the ladies, but everyone - this is bigger than system reform, this is bigger than one man\'s ego - this is truly our nexus with the future.  which future it will be depends on presenting a united front against George W. Bush and his administration.

I think tonights debate will be interesting, especially to see if the Shrub camp changes their strategy (read mantra) tonight. Also to see if the additional time to prep will help Shrub at all.

I am looking forward to watching Shrub go down in flames yet again!

But as for the 3rd, well that one will just make my life hell. Its in will be held at Arizona State University, in a beautiful building that happens to be not 5 minute, and 2.2 miles from my office. Meaning the traffic will be insane! It will be worse then when it is just the president in town. They already have big signs up that there may even be road closures in the area. What I would like to know is, WHAT ABOUT US SCHMUCKS WHO HAVE TO WORK FOR A LIVING IN CLOSE PROXIMITY TO THE VENUE???? And to be honest the traffic here is already bad enough.... I know not compared to LA, BUT the problem here is that there are SOOOOO many ridiculously expensive cars  with drivers, dead from the neck up, on cell phones, with a "ME FIRST" mentality, who seem to have forgotten (or just plain ignore) that OTHER PEOPLE EXIST!!  :o

I actually had some Yokle, pull up next to me in a HUGE Ford F150, with raised suspension, and tracker size tires (gee compensating for something? ), who honked to get my attention just to flip me the bird because of my 6 (SIX) liberal democratic bumper stickers. And when he pulls ahead in his lane, staisfied that he has told me where to put my opinions (as if he could EVER silence me) what sticker is on his truck? :o

[glb]
"I\'m from TEXAS, what country are you from?"[/glb]

Just goes to show Texans are SO DUMB they think they are a country, not a state! ::)

Beatnik  8)
Doing my part to piss off the right wing of anything!

i\'m hoping Kerry will pull out all the stops tonight because the format tonight is one in which Bush usually shines.  he\'s just so "folksy" ya know... hopefully there will be enough really sharp questions that he will forget his scripted responses and fluster into flames.

we\'re having my mom & stepdad over for the fun - tacos, margaritas, family tv time - it should be a gas.  i\'m just hoping my pop won\'t throw his taco at Bush - greasy tv screens are a pain!

anyone who\'s gonna be in SF tomorrow - there is an Art Expo at Lennon Recording Studios 2p-8p - they\'re pushing for an end to the Shrub too, so naturally my political pieces will part of the art show.  some really great live music is lined up, plus there\'ll be food and drink, so at $10 a head it\'s one of the best deals in the bay area for a fun time.

//www.lennonstudios.com/artexpo.html

they make these cool motorized transports that go through the air - you could try one of those... they go faster.  unless i\'m driving.   ;D

come on over - and you better believe you are cleaning up - the man spills enough without a food tossing contest!

 :-*

Bush hopes to rebound in second debate (Article Link~ http://newsobserver.com/24hour/politics/story/1720806p-9533592c.html

*lifts tray of assorted pastry* Ok, this is my contribution to Democracies calories in action Darlins. :)

This should be an interesting night indeed. ;)

Beatnik, you poor thing. (((HUGS))) I drive a 1988 Mazda pickup. (http://www.imgmag.com/images/lyoness/EMOTICONS/63247.gif) The large trucks, like the Ford F150 you encountered, make my ride look like a "Hot Wheel\'s" toy.

As for the flipping of the bird in traffic; I have found a sure fire way to piss off the flipper , rather than just suffering through as the flipee! ;)

Applaud and throw kisses! (http://www.imgmag.com/images/lyoness/EMOTICONS/happy49.gif)

I swear it works wonders. (If your good at driving with your knee that is. If not, just throw kisses with one hand as you steer. ;) )

Most people that throw a bird will watch to see the reaction of their victim.  Their already po\'d, so when you don\'t react like they expect you to; i.e. all flustered and upset, etc... but instead smile your brightest, and throw kisses and/or applaud, they\'ll go through their own roof with outrage!  ;D

I did this in response to a woman in Tampa , after she insisted on following me for miles, while repeatedly hitting her horn so as to reinterate she had a third finger. (we\'re talking bumper to bumper A.M. traffic here).  
All the while she was birding, I was throwing kisses, smiling, and applauding. OMG, she was incensed and finally gave up her pursuit and trying to get me upset, when she nearly rear ended another car. :o

I pitied the first person she encountered at her destination, (if she actually arrived given her state of mind), that said, "Good Morning!" , after that.

Just thought I\'d share that little tidbit to help you with a solution to the next bird brain you may encounter. ;)

Ocean, thanks so much! For some reasion that never occured to me. But I am sure that during the next few days, as I WILL be sitting in more traffic, that I will have the opportunity to use your suggestion! And I will report back the results! :o

gkg - I believe that Kerry did pull out the stops, and that Shub was only marginally better behaved then the 1st debate. ::)

I believe the 3rd will be his campaigns death knell. ::)

I am struck by a newly relaesed song by Greenday:

"American Idiot" - "One Nation controlled by the media, in the age of paranoia" it also mentios a "red neck agenda" - sounds like Fox News to me!! Everytime I hear this song, it seems to me more and more an anthem for what this country has turned into. Especially played up by the Bush/Cheney camp who\'s mantra is "fear, fear, fear".  :-X

Well, ladies, unforunately I have brought home work, so I had best get started...... I owe, I owe, so it\'s off to work I go.... :-[
Beatnik  8)

is it just me or did Bush channel some sort of turkey or rooster during half the debate - his head kept bobbing forward and back like some demented fowl.

fingers crossed that tomorrow will really blow the show wide open... i wasn\'t fully hyped by Friday\'s performance by Kerry, but it was good... i think he just needs to open up a little more.  he\'ll never be Bobby Kennedy, but hey, no one ever will.